Current Affairs 2020 Democratic Primary

[Pittsburgh Footy]

A lot wrong with this. For a start, why is it that ""the bots" are tearing Sanders opponents apart" as an especially bad thing when all the candidates are buying ads attacking each other (and Sanders in particular), when centrists on Twitter and everyones surrogates in the media are doing the same thing?

Secondly the whole cult argument is pretty absurd, as we saw over here where long standing Labour members (and people who returned to the party) were described as such because they happened to support Corbyn.

For a start it is a bit mad that people who adopt the same language (calling other people cultists), make the same criticisms (that their opponents don't have an interest in the party as a whole), who stereotype to a level that is way beyond acceptable and profess beliefs that are if not manifestly false then extremely questionable (that a centrist candidate exists that will beat Trump and that the Dem establishment will pick that candidate) get to go around calling other people cultists.

Because Sanders supporters gave us Trump the first time. If they simply did the adult thing and voted for Hillary, we wouldn't have this cretin in office right now

 

[Ruairi77]

A lot wrong with this. For a start, why is it that ""the bots" are tearing Sanders opponents apart" as an especially bad thing when all the candidates are buying ads attacking each other (and Sanders in particular), when centrists on Twitter and everyones surrogates in the media are doing the same thing?

Why are paid Russian trolls posing as American voters a bad thing?
It's nothing like a campaign ad.
I can't believe this needs explaining.
I haven't seen one TV ad attacking Sanders. (doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't seen any. I've seen plenty attacking Bloomberg and Biden).
From my view point here, the other candidates are taking it easy on Sanders for fear of a nasty backlash from his base.

Secondly the whole cult argument is pretty absurd, as we saw over here where long standing Labour members (and people who returned to the party) were described as such because they happened to support Corbyn.
For a start it is a bit mad that people who adopt the same language (calling other people cultists), make the same criticisms (that their opponents don't have an interest in the party as a whole), who stereotype to a level that is way beyond acceptable and profess beliefs that are if not manifestly false then extremely questionable (that a centrist candidate exists that will beat Trump and that the Dem establishment will pick that candidate) get to go around calling other people cultists.

I never called sanders supporters 'cultists'. I made the point that they exhibit some of the same traits as Trump supporters. The outsider nature of their candidate holds a major appeal to them. That's where they differ to the Corbyn fans. He was a hardcore Labour member.
They are far less likely to vote for any other candidate in the GE if Sanders is not nominated.

So, not a whole lot wrong with what I said really.
Comparing Russian bots to campaign ads tho...

 

[Ruairi77]

Because Sanders supporters gave us Trump the first time. If they simply did the adult thing and voted for Hillary, we wouldn't have this cretin in office right now

From the NYT
Looks like we haven't learned a thing.
"Only 53 percent of Sanders voters say they will certainly support whoever is the Democratic nominee. This is no idle threat. In 2016, in Pennsylvania, 117,000 Sanders primary voters went for Trump in the general, and Trump won the state by 44,292 ballots. In Michigan, 48,000 Sanders voters went for Trump, and Trump won the state by 10,704. In Wisconsin, 51,300 Sanders voters went for Trump, and Trump won the state by 22,748. In short, Sanders voters helped elect Trump."

 

[tsubaki]

Why are paid Russian trolls posing as American voters a bad thing?
It's nothing like a campaign ad.
I can't believe this needs explaining.
I haven't seen one TV ad attacking Sanders. (doesn't mean they don't exist, I just haven't seen any. I've seen plenty attacking Bloomberg and Biden).
From my view point here, the other candidates are taking it easy on Sanders for fear of a nasty backlash from his base.

So why do you conflate paid Russian trolls with Sanders' base? They are either American voters or they aren't - and if they aren't, blaming him for their actions is completely wide of the mark.

I never called sanders supporters 'cultists'. I made the point that they exhibit some of the same traits as Trump supporters. The outsider nature of their candidate holds a major appeal to them. That's where they differ to the Corbyn fans. He was a hardcore Labour member.
They are far less likely to vote for any other candidate in the GE if Sanders is not nominated.

So, not a whole lot wrong with what I said really.
Comparing Russian bots to campaign ads tho...

er - you called them "cult like", and said they had no interest in voting for down ballot candidates

 

[tsubaki]

From the NYT
Looks like we haven't learned a thing.
"Only 53 percent of Sanders voters say they will certainly support whoever is the Democratic nominee. This is no idle threat. In 2016, in Pennsylvania, 117,000 Sanders primary voters went for Trump in the general, and Trump won the state by 44,292 ballots. In Michigan, 48,000 Sanders voters went for Trump, and Trump won the state by 10,704. In Wisconsin, 51,300 Sanders voters went for Trump, and Trump won the state by 22,748. In short, Sanders voters helped elect Trump."

Given that a similar amount of Obama voters voted for Trump, perhaps the problem was with the candidate rather than the voters?

 

[sdk]

Secondly the whole cult argument is pretty absurd, as we saw over here where long standing Labour members (and people who returned to the party) were described as such because they happened to support Corbyn.

The USA and the UK might not be entirely analogous politically. For example, we have a president with great numbers of persons in his base willing to believe anything he says, regardless of his habit of uttering demonstrable falsehoods with every breath. How many Boris Johnson supporters claim it will be civil war if he (not the Tories, but he in particular) were to be removed from office?

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Given that a similar amount of Obama voters voted for Trump, perhaps the problem was with the candidate rather than the voters?

I guess the point is this:

How can there possibly be, by any sane, rational, intelligent metric, a "worse" candidate than Trump

Did Hillary have flaws? Sure. Skeletons? Probably. Were many of us tired of the Clintons? Of course.

But who, in their right mind, saw Trump and wasn't scared to death of him and what he awoke in his followers, is beyond my comprehension

 

[Ruairi77]

Given that a similar amount of Obama voters voted for Trump, perhaps the problem was with the candidate rather than the voters?

Obama didnt run in 2016

 

[tsubaki]

The USA and the UK might not be entirely analogous politically. For example, we have a president with great numbers of persons in his base willing to believe anything he says, regardless of his habit of uttering demonstrable falsehoods with every breath. How many Boris Johnson supporters claim it will be civil war if he (not the Tories, but he in particular) were to be removed from office?

If Brexit hadn't happened there would probably have been some ructions.

 

[tsubaki]

Obama didnt run in 2016

He didn't, but if you are going to criticise Bernie supporters for not voting for Hillary then perhaps it is not to much to point out that other people who had previously backed Democrats didn't vote for her either, in electorally significant numbers.

 

[Ruairi77]

So why do you conflate paid Russian trolls with Sanders' base? They are either American voters or they aren't - and if they aren't, blaming him for their actions is completely wide of the mark.

What???
I said I didn't like the way Sanders base attacked Warren with the #Warrenisasnake hashtag.
Others pointed out that alot of that might be bot activity.
I then wandered why bots might want to take down Sander's opponents.
All fairly reasonable conversation.
I'm not quite sure where you are going with all this

er - you called them "cult like", and said they had no interest in voting for down ballot candidates

no I didn't, I addressed the issue that they were being called cult like with a reason why this might be happening.
I don't think they have no interest in voting down ballot, I just think they have less interest than the other candidates voters.
I put this down to Sanders being an independent and not a Democrat.

 

[tsubaki]

I guess the point is this:

How can there possibly be, by any sane, rational, intelligent metric, a "worse" candidate than Trump

Did Hillary have flaws? Sure. Skeletons? Probably. Were many of us tired of the Clintons? Of course.

But who, in their right mind, saw Trump and wasn't scared to death of him and what he awoke in his followers, is beyond my comprehension

This is the establishment Democratic problem in a nutshell - the opposition are horrors (and they are), so lets put up a candidate who is less bad and then when that doesn't work, blame other people. The really annoying thing is that if by some chance he was the candidate, a load of people would find all manner of reasons to not vote for him despite knowing that four more years of Trump is the outcome.

I've posted this before on here but Bernie should be nowhere near the nomination; in a healthy, competently run party he wouldn't be. The fact that he is, that he now apparently has a double digit lead, that he's had a heart attack and has gone up in the polling vs the establishment candidates should perhaps make people who favour centrism / traditional Democratic politics look at what is happening.

 

[Ruairi77]

He didn't, but if you are going to criticise Bernie supporters for not voting for Hillary then perhaps it is not to much to point out that other people who had previously backed Democrats didn't vote for her either, in electorally significant numbers.

I'm not criticizing them for not voting for Clinton. I'm criticizing them for voting for Trump.
It all feeds back to my point that he's an Independent and his supporters don't have a strong allegiance to the democratic party.

 

[sdk]

If Brexit hadn't happened there would probably have been some ructions.

But would the ructions have issued from a personality cult?

If there's no personality cult around Trump then there wasn't one around Stalin either, nor Hitler, nor the successive Kims of North Korea, and we can toss the entire concept.

 

[tsubaki]

But would the ructions have issued from a personality cult?

If there's no personality cult around Trump then there wasn't one around Stalin either, nor Hitler, nor the successive Kims of North Korea, and we can toss the entire concept.

Have you read some of the press coverage he (Johnson) got?