Current Affairs 2017 General Election

[Mrk]

What are the modern left wing policies you'd like to see (am not knocking you, just interested)?

As a liberal, none! lol

However, I do think it's important for a realistic alternative to be presented to people.

 

[JonS]

This just makes me despair, because you're essentially waving a white flag. If the left wants radical change, all they have to do is formulate policies that aren't stuck in the 20th century, and then find a leader who is competent enough to present them to the country. No amount of attacks from the right-wing press could stop them.

Corbyn is the right-wing press' wet dream, Blair, on the other hand, wasn't. They'd much rather have a Tory government than a centrist Labour government, but Blair's popularity forced them to be supportive (although, the extent to which this happened is overplayed a little bit).

I'm not waving a white flag (and my own happiness comes more from within rather than what any political party can do for me) It's just that sometimes you have to wait for people to change. It'll take another 15-30 years IMO before the disatisfaction with corporate capitalism/neoliberal globalisation gets to a level where enough people want something different. The EU will break up then too IMO for the same reasons

 

[JonS]

As a liberal, none! lol

However, I do think it's important for a realistic alternative to be presented to people.

Was just interested in what you thought the realistic alternative was.

 

[Mrk]

I'm not waving a white flag (and my own happiness comes more from within rather than what any political party can do for me) It's just that sometimes you have to wait for people to change. It'll take another 15-30 years IMO before the disatisfaction with corporate capitalism/neoliberal globalisation gets to a level where enough people want something different. The EU will break up then too IMO for the same reasons

And what happens if/when this doesn't happen?

This is kind of solidifies my point - instead of the left changing to match the views of the electorate, they're always waiting for the electorate to change instead, but the risk is that the electorate won't change, or even worse, they'll go in the other direction, which is what is happening at the moment. Even though I disagree with a lot of the left's thinking (mainly on economics), a part of me wants them to do reasonably well so that the right doesn't have complete control. That is in danger of happening right now.

 

[bring the ghost on]

The trouble is that Marxism means different things to different people.

Does Corbyn ascribe to some aspects of classical Marxism (i.e. the fundamental principles that capitalist leads to exploitation and that the country should focus on the great good rather than the profit of a minority)? Yes.

Does Corbyn ascribe to the general principles of Marxism-Lenninism (i.e. that all industry and private property should be under state ownership and there should be a single government rather than a democracy)? No.

Does he believe in certain ideas in between, such as Nationalised health care, bringing vital services into the public sector and welfare? Yes.

He's not really too different to a lot of traditional Labour supporters in his beliefs really and it's pretty unhelpful to portray him as being a massive radical who is comparable to Lennin. He has admiration for Marx, but doesn't call himself a Marxist because that does not really truly reflect his set of believes - he is a social democrat really.

@bluecol

Just wondering, what was it in my post above that made you "dislike". I notice you're disliking any post with a even a slight whiff of being left of centre, so it would be useful if you could post a response and let us know what it is you disagree with.

 

[JonS]

And what happens if/when this doesn't happen?

This is kind of solidifies my point - instead of the left changing to match the views of the electorate, they're always waiting for the electorate to change instead, but the risk is that the electorate won't change, or even worse, they'll go in the other direction, which is what is happening at the moment. Even though I disagree with a lot of the left's thinking (mainly on economics), a part of me wants them to do reasonably well so that the right doesn't have complete control. That is in danger of happening right now.

Please tell us what the left needs to change to . You keep saying it needs to change but not what to!

 

[Mrk]

Please tell us what the left needs to change to . You keep saying it needs to change but not what to!

I think they could make a start by dragging themselves into the 21st century - a lot of the arguments put forward by the left are arguments that were lost in the 80's, and most voters seem to regard as irrelevant.

I dislike the far-right as much as I dislike the far-left, but it's hard not to be impressed with how the right adapts to the electorate, rather than the other way around.

 

[JonS]

I think they could make a start by dragging themselves into the 21st century - a lot of the arguments put forward by the left are arguments that were lost in the 80's, and most voters seem to regard as irrelevant.

I dislike the far-right as much as I dislike the far-left, but it's hard not to be impressed with how the right adapts to the electorate, rather than the other way around.

You are still being very unspecific and I keep pushing the point because otherwise it is just sniping.

 

[Mrk]

You are still being very unspecific and I keep pushing the point because otherwise it is just sniping.

It's hard to be specific about what the left need to do, especially as somebody who doesn't share many of the values of the left. I don't want the left to do better because I support them, I want them to do better because it's important to keep the right in check.

But, to try and be specific, the left could start by thinking about whether their arguments on welfare, immigration, health & government spending put them in a position to win elections.

 

[tsubaki]

It's hard to be specific about what the left need to do, especially as somebody who doesn't share many of the values of the left. I don't want the left to do better because I support them, I want them to do better because it's important to keep the right in check.

But, to try and be specific, the left could start by thinking about whether their arguments on welfare, immigration, health & government spending put them in a position to win elections.

This neatly folds back into your earlier point about the media. If you look at the 1980s (or 1970s, if you want to compare things with a Labour government) we spent less on welfare, less on health, immigration was lower, and governments spent less in real terms than they do now.

Yet we are told that Corbyn would take us back to those times.

 

[JonS]

It's hard to be specific about what the left need to do, especially as somebody who doesn't share many of the values of the left. I don't want the left to do better because I support them, I want them to do better because it's important to keep the right in check.

But, to try and be specific, the left could start by thinking about whether their arguments on welfare, immigration, health & government spending put them in a position to win elections.

The only issue is, if they didn't hold the views they do the left wouldn't be the left, they would be the right (or at least the centre).

I'm all for PR myself. Then parties could stand up for their views without having to compromise and we would vote for what we wanted.

I rather envied the French Presidential election recently as it seemed to have a whole array of candidates with very defined views.

Unfortunately their voting system doesn't really deliver, hence voters in the left now feeling they have to vote for Macron whose policies they really don't like, just to stop LePen who they like even less

 

[Mrk]

This neatly folds back into your earlier point about the media. If you look at the 1980s (or 1970s, if you want to compare things with a Labour government) we spent less on welfare, less on health, immigration was lower, and governments spent less in real terms than they do now.

Yet we are told that Corbyn would take us back to those times.

Indeed, and I must say, a lot of that is thanks to Tony Blair, who forced the Tory party to accept higher welfare, health and government spending.

 

[tsubaki]

Indeed, and I must say, a lot of that is thanks to Tony Blair, who forced the Tory party to accept higher welfare, health and government spending.

... which kind of makes it daft to say that Corbyn wants to ruin the country by taking us back to a time when we spent less, and lived more within our means.

 

[Mrk]

The only issue is, if they didn't hold the views they do the left wouldn't be the left, they would be the right (or at least the centre).

I'm all for PR myself. Then parties could stand up for their views without having to compromise and we would vote for what we wanted.

I rather envied the French Presidential election recently as it seemed to have a whole array of candidates with very defined views.

Unfortunately their voting system doesn't really deliver, hence voters in the left now feeling they have to vote for Macron whose policies they really don't like, just to stop LePen who they like even less

Who decides this? Is there a committee that decides what is and isn't acceptable for the left to believe? Surely the left should be able to define themselves, rather than be defined by what their ancestors thought?

As for PR, I'm ambivalent. I like Germany's political system where parties have to work together, but I don't think that would work in the UK.

 

[Mrk]

... which kind of makes it daft to say that Corbyn wants to ruin the country by taking us back to a time when we spent less, and lived more within our means.

I quite agree, that would be a daft thing to say. Kind of in the same way it's daft to suggest the Tories are more right-wing than ever, even though, as you've just pointed out, we now spend infinitely more on welfare, health etc than we did under the likes of Harold Wilson. It's a stupid argument from both sides.