Does Moyes' reign look better with hindsight given the dismal performances of his successors?

[Ihaters]

Moyes 5th
Moyes 8th
Moyes 7th
Moyes 7th
Moyes 6th
Martinez 5th
Martinez 11th
Martinez 11th
Koeman 7th
Allardyce 8th

Take me back to those good old days of Moysie, to glorious Goodison Park.

Show the decade before

 

[Papa Shango]

Think saying he done more damage to this club that most will appreciate is wrong . He took over when we were in serious trouble, worked through a period where we could have gone bankrupt and if we went down I do t think we would have come back up, he not only stayed up but had us in Europe regularly and left us with a decent squad of players that got 5th the season after he left. Not like bobby and koeman that have damaged the club for years

None of them have damaged the club for years. Things can turn around pretty quickly season on season.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

True, he did have a year when he didn't exceed expectations, but just matched them, but unlike when he left us, that was the expectations back then... Avoiding relegation...
A bit like when we bought Sam in recently to try to counter where we have declined so rapidly back to since Moyes left.

We went from 7th to 17th with our lowest points ever in the premier league with Wayne Rooney.

There's no way any manager would survive that fall nowadays.

 

[Papa Shango]

Moyes was the lowest paid manager in the prem when signed from Preston. He was on 400k a year about 8k a week. He was given no financial backing and inherited a Walter smith side that couldn't score in a brothel. He saved us in his first season and had a bad second season, finished 4th the next and from then on he had us 5-6th for the mojority of his stay on probably the wrist budget I can remember any prem club having . Moyes had run of the place because bill knew that Moyes was the only thing between him and a fans backlash. Nobody would have came here if he walked , no money, having to sell players it's a hiding to nothing for any new manager. No prem manager has worked under such strict financial conditions that I can remember. We were close to going bankrupt a few times , we would sell one of our players late in the window and it would never be seen again.

Why are you telling me all this?

What he was paid is irrelevant. I have already said he did a decent job, you are trying to argue that by showing me instances of him doing a decent job? I don't really get the point of this (nothing you are saying in that regard is wrong either).

As for no manager having to work under such strict conditions? Oh come on! People easily forget that players don't play for free. Money made from selling someone would go on extended contracts to our better players, something we did year on year. We were skint for a club of our stature. We still had more to spend (especially on wages) than a lot of other clubs.

As I have said loads now, he did a decent to good job. Fair play to him. At the same time I am not massively keen on making a perennial loser some kind of managerial god for doing an "amazing" job either.

 

[Tel001]

None of them have damaged the club for years. Things can turn around pretty quickly season on season.

You don't think signing players on long expensive contracts that don't suite the league of the next managers system is damaging?

 

[Papa Shango]

You don't think signing players on long expensive contracts that don't suite the league of the next managers system is damaging?

No because the manager doesn't tend to deal with contracts does he?

Depends what you class as damaging anyway. I am getting to the point of thinking no matter what we do we will end up in roughly the same position as that's football these days and its all a bit rubbish.

 

[Tel001]

Why are you telling me all this?

What he was paid is irrelevant. I have already said he did a decent job, you are trying to argue that by showing me instances of him doing a decent job? I don't really get the point of this (nothing you are saying in that regard is wrong either).

As for no manager having to work under such strict conditions? Oh come on! People easily forget that players don't play for free. Money made from selling someone would go on extended contracts to our better players, something we did year on year. We were skint for a club of our stature. We still had more to spend (especially on wages) than a lot of other clubs.

As I have said loads now, he did a decent to good job. Fair play to him. At the same time I am not massively keen on making a perennial loser some kind of managerial god for doing an "amazing" job either.

So you believe we sold players and invested in new contracts etc? You don't remember us not signing anyone permanently for years? You do t remeber the arteta money going to the banks? You don't remember "the wolves were at the door" ? When we sold Rooney?

 

[Tel001]

No because the manager doesn't tend to deal with contracts does he?

Depends what you class as damaging anyway. I am getting to the point of thinking no matter what we do we will end up in roughly the same position as that's football these days and its all a bit rubbish.

I mean damaging by signing players like alzaraz, mgeady, niasse, bolasie? Klassen, Rooney, Morgan etc players we might have to sell at a lose or supliment their wages to get them to leave which effects FFP and players which aren't good enough or which where literally never used

 

[jtl60]

I've always thought Moyes reign was more successful than many give him credit for. However, things happen, change happens. The stability he bought to the club made sure Martinez didn't get away with his poor 2nd season for example.

At times we played some great stuff under Moyes as well. We will never know what he would have done had he had Lukaku at his disposal and likewise, we will never know if Lukaku would have come to play under Moyes!

 

[Papa Shango]

So you believe we sold players and invested in new contracts etc? You don't remember us not signing anyone permanently for years? You do t remeber the arteta money going to the banks? You don't remember "the wolves were at the door" ? When we sold Rooney?

Yes I remember it! So where does the money for new deals come from then? Extra wages, signing on fees etc? We were able to keep most of our better players by paying them a bit more than what they would get at similar teams.

Its all excuses, regardless of what money he had or not, we had a good side there, down to him no doubt, I think we could have done a bit more if we had the right attitude but then the old knife to a gunfight stuff started to happen and we were never allowed to dream then.

11 years with a generally stable squad of good players, a team good enough to finish at the right end of the table, but also a team who would cave in any time a chance of glory came along hence the shocking records against the "big clubs" and the times we crapped the bed in Europe.

Again he did a good job. Amazing would involve winning something, something he has never been able to do. And that's fine as he is (well was) a decent manager.

 

[Ihaters]

We went from 7th to 17th with our lowest points ever in the premier league with Wayne Rooney.

There's no way any manager would survive that fall nowadays.

No... we went from being terrible to having a rare top half finish, then back to normal for a season before Moyes progressed us on:

I took the liberty of highlighting our bottom half finishes to visually show the difference he made and how not 'out of place' that 17th place finish was compared the 7th place (under Moyes) that went before it.

2016/2017 Premier League 7 18 7 5 6 23 21 4 4 1 12 7 3 1 5 11 14 26
2015/2016 Premier League 11 38 11 14 13 59 55 6 5 8 35 30 5 9 5 24 25 47
2014/2015 Premier League 11 38 12 11 15 48 50 7 7 5 27 21 5 4 10 21 29 47
2013/2014 Premier League 5 38 21 9 8 61 39 13 3 3 38 19 8 6 5 23 20 72
______________________________________________________________________________
2012/2013 Premier League 6 38 16 15 7 55 40 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 63
2011/2012 Premier League 7 38 15 11 12 50 40 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 56
2010/2011 Premier League 7 38 13 15 10 51 45 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 54
2009/2010 Premier League 8 38 16 13 9 60 49 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 61
2008/2009 Premier League 5 38 17 12 9 55 37 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 63
2007/2008 Premier League 5 38 19 8 11 55 33 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 65
2006/2007 Premiership 6 38 15 13 10 52 36 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 58
2005/2006 Premiership 11 38 14 8 16 34 49 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 50
2004/2005 Premiership 4 38 18 7 13 45 46 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 61
2003/2004 Premiership 17 38 9 12 17 45 57 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 39
2002/2003 Premiership 7 38 17 8 13 48 49 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 59
_______________________________________________________________________________________
2001/2002 Premiership 15 38 11 10 17 45 57 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 43
2000/2001 Premiership 16 38 11 9 18 45 59 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 42
1999/2000 Premiership 13 38 12 14 12 59 49 7 9 3 36 21 5 5 9 23 28 50
1998/1999 Premiership 14 38 11 10 17 42 47 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 43
1997/1998 Premiership 17 38 9 13 16 41 56 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 40
1996/1997 Premiership 15 38 10 12 16 44 57 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 42
1995/1996 Premiership 6 38 17 10 11 64 44 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 61
1994/1995 Premiership 15 42 11 17 14 44 51 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 50
1993/1994 Premiership 17 42 12 8 22 42 63 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 44
1992/1993 Premier League 13 42 15 8 19 53 55 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 53
1991/1992 First Division 12 42 13 14 15 52 51 8 8 5 28 19 5 6 10 24 32 53

15,17,14,13,16,15,7,17 - Is it really the 17th that seems so out of place in that sequence?

But it may be clearer showing it the other way... Top half finishes coloured by manager:

2016/2017 Premier League 7 18 7 5 6 23 21 4 4 1 12 7 3 1 5 11 14 26
2015/2016 Premier League 11 38 11 14 13 59 55 6 5 8 35 30 5 9 5 24 25 47
2014/2015 Premier League 11 38 12 11 15 48 50 7 7 5 27 21 5 4 10 21 29 47
2013/2014 Premier League 5 38 21 9 8 61 39 13 3 3 38 19 8 6 5 23 20 72

2012/2013 Premier League 6 38 16 15 7 55 40 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 63
2011/2012 Premier League 7 38 15 11 12 50 40 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 56
2010/2011 Premier League 7 38 13 15 10 51 45 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 54
2009/2010 Premier League 8 38 16 13 9 60 49 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 61
2008/2009 Premier League 5 38 17 12 9 55 37 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 63
2007/2008 Premier League 5 38 19 8 11 55 33 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 65
2006/2007 Premiership 6 38 15 13 10 52 36 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 58
2005/2006 Premiership 11 38 14 8 16 34 49 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 50
2004/2005 Premiership 4 38 18 7 13 45 46 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 61
2003/2004 Premiership 17 38 9 12 17 45 57 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 39
2002/2003 Premiership 7 38 17 8 13 48 49 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 59

2001/2002 Premiership 15 38 11 10 17 45 57 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 43
2000/2001 Premiership 16 38 11 9 18 45 59 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 42
1999/2000 Premiership 13 38 12 14 12 59 49 7 9 3 36 21 5 5 9 23 28 50
1998/1999 Premiership 14 38 11 10 17 42 47 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 43
1997/1998 Premiership 17 38 9 13 16 41 56 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 40
1996/1997 Premiership 15 38 10 12 16 44 57 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 42
1995/1996 Premiership 6 38 17 10 11 64 44 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 61
1994/1995 Premiership 15 42 11 17 14 44 51 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 50
1993/1994 Premiership 17 42 12 8 22 42 63 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 44
1992/1993 Premier League 13 42 15 8 19 53 55 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 53
1991/1992 First Division 12 42 13 14 15 52 51 8 8 5 28 19 5 6 10 24 32 53

This is why he had so much time, because this was against a backdrop of sell to buy when those around were flashing the cash and buying who they wanted, despite this he got us to a Champions League spot, being the first to break the infamous sky 4's hold..
He didn't keep his job because of some nonsense ideal that it was because of some excessive back scenes chumery going on. He just did a good job, so got to keep it.

 

[Papa Shango]

I mean damaging by signing players like alzaraz, mgeady, niasse, bolasie? Klassen, Rooney, Morgan etc players we might have to sell at a lose or supliment their wages to get them to leave which effects FFP and players which aren't good enough or which where literally never used

That's football though. It happens at every club! Why do we keep thinking we are a special case?

Niasse shouldn't be on that list by the way... but that is another topic for another time!

 

[Papa Shango]

This is why he had so much time, because this was against a backdrop of sell to buy when those around were flashing the cash and buying who they wanted, despite this he got us to a Champions League spot, being the first to break the infamous sky 4's hold..
He didn't keep his job because of some nonsense ideal that it was because of some excessive back scenes chumery going on. He just did a good job, so got to keep it.

Nope. He didn't.

He got us a qualification spot. We didn't qualify. Therefore it was of no benefit to us.

Classic Moyesy.

 

[Ihaters]

Nope. He didn't.

He got us a qualification spot. We didn't qualify. Therefore it was of no benefit to us.

Classic Moyesy.

Lol

 

[GrandOldTeam]

No... we went from being terrible to having a rare top half finish, then back to normal for a season before Moyes progressed us on:

I took the liberty of highlighting our bottom half finishes to visually show the difference he made and how not 'out of place' that 17th place finish was compared the 7th place (under Moyes) that went before it.

2016/2017 Premier League 7 18 7 5 6 23 21 4 4 1 12 7 3 1 5 11 14 26
2015/2016 Premier League 11 38 11 14 13 59 55 6 5 8 35 30 5 9 5 24 25 47
2014/2015 Premier League 11 38 12 11 15 48 50 7 7 5 27 21 5 4 10 21 29 47
2013/2014 Premier League 5 38 21 9 8 61 39 13 3 3 38 19 8 6 5 23 20 72
______________________________________________________________________________
2012/2013 Premier League 6 38 16 15 7 55 40 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 63
2011/2012 Premier League 7 38 15 11 12 50 40 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 56
2010/2011 Premier League 7 38 13 15 10 51 45 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 54
2009/2010 Premier League 8 38 16 13 9 60 49 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 61
2008/2009 Premier League 5 38 17 12 9 55 37 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 63
2007/2008 Premier League 5 38 19 8 11 55 33 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 65
2006/2007 Premiership 6 38 15 13 10 52 36 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 58
2005/2006 Premiership 11 38 14 8 16 34 49 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 50
2004/2005 Premiership 4 38 18 7 13 45 46 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 61
2003/2004 Premiership 17 38 9 12 17 45 57 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 39
2002/2003 Premiership 7 38 17 8 13 48 49 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 59
_______________________________________________________________________________________
2001/2002 Premiership 15 38 11 10 17 45 57 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 43
2000/2001 Premiership 16 38 11 9 18 45 59 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 42
1999/2000 Premiership 13 38 12 14 12 59 49 7 9 3 36 21 5 5 9 23 28 50
1998/1999 Premiership 14 38 11 10 17 42 47 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 43
1997/1998 Premiership 17 38 9 13 16 41 56 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 40
1996/1997 Premiership 15 38 10 12 16 44 57 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 42
1995/1996 Premiership 6 38 17 10 11 64 44 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 61
1994/1995 Premiership 15 42 11 17 14 44 51 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 50
1993/1994 Premiership 17 42 12 8 22 42 63 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 44
1992/1993 Premier League 13 42 15 8 19 53 55 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 53
1991/1992 First Division 12 42 13 14 15 52 51 8 8 5 28 19 5 6 10 24 32 53

15,17,14,13,16,15,7,17 - Is it really the 17th that seems so out of place in that sequence?

But it may be clearer showing it the other way... Top half finishes coloured by manager:

2016/2017 Premier League 7 18 7 5 6 23 21 4 4 1 12 7 3 1 5 11 14 26
2015/2016 Premier League 11 38 11 14 13 59 55 6 5 8 35 30 5 9 5 24 25 47
2014/2015 Premier League 11 38 12 11 15 48 50 7 7 5 27 21 5 4 10 21 29 47
2013/2014 Premier League 5 38 21 9 8 61 39 13 3 3 38 19 8 6 5 23 20 72

2012/2013 Premier League 6 38 16 15 7 55 40 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 63
2011/2012 Premier League 7 38 15 11 12 50 40 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 56
2010/2011 Premier League 7 38 13 15 10 51 45 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 54
2009/2010 Premier League 8 38 16 13 9 60 49 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 61
2008/2009 Premier League 5 38 17 12 9 55 37 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 63
2007/2008 Premier League 5 38 19 8 11 55 33 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 65
2006/2007 Premiership 6 38 15 13 10 52 36 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 58
2005/2006 Premiership 11 38 14 8 16 34 49 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 50
2004/2005 Premiership 4 38 18 7 13 45 46 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 61
2003/2004 Premiership 17 38 9 12 17 45 57 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 39
2002/2003 Premiership 7 38 17 8 13 48 49 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 59

2001/2002 Premiership 15 38 11 10 17 45 57 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 43
2000/2001 Premiership 16 38 11 9 18 45 59 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 42
1999/2000 Premiership 13 38 12 14 12 59 49 7 9 3 36 21 5 5 9 23 28 50
1998/1999 Premiership 14 38 11 10 17 42 47 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 43
1997/1998 Premiership 17 38 9 13 16 41 56 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 40
1996/1997 Premiership 15 38 10 12 16 44 57 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 42
1995/1996 Premiership 6 38 17 10 11 64 44 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 61
1994/1995 Premiership 15 42 11 17 14 44 51 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 50
1993/1994 Premiership 17 42 12 8 22 42 63 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 44
1992/1993 Premier League 13 42 15 8 19 53 55 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 53
1991/1992 First Division 12 42 13 14 15 52 51 8 8 5 28 19 5 6 10 24 32 53

This is why he had so much time, because this was against a backdrop of sell to buy when those around were flashing the cash and buying who they wanted, despite this he got us to a Champions League spot, being the first to break the infamous sky 4's hold..
He didn't keep his job because of some nonsense ideal that it was because of some excessive back scenes chumery going on. He just did a good job, so got to keep it.

Show the decade before.