Hypothetical Martinez question

[Thomasc]

Least we Forget

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Ahh the golden era of Everton under Martinez after his first season, what joyous days they were.

Stats don't tell you everything though, remember those glorious days of sideways passes and being very ineffective in the opponents final 3rd and not being able to break teams down?

Still, the 72 point trophy eh, it should be etched in Goodlison folklore.

 

[davek]

And finished ahead of most of those clubs. In the same period Newcastle Portsmouth Spurs Villa we’re chucking money around all over the place. You can beat Moyes with some sticks but trying to make out he somehow had a decent budget to work with is staggering.

It's a fact.

Moyes had a net spend every season between his first full season in 2002/03 to season 2008/09 (with the exception of season 2004/05 when Rooney was sold). In that period he had a net spend of £36M.

Yes, he had a low net spend overall in his tenure of 11 seasons, but the purse strings were shut late on in his time here from season 2009/10 on.

 

[Goat]

It's a fact.

Moyes had a net spend every season between his first full season in 2002/03 to season 2008/09 (with the exception of season 2004/05 when Rooney was sold). In that period he had a net spend of £36M.

Yes, he had a low net spend overall in his tenure of 11 seasons, but the purse strings were shut late on in his time here from season 2009/10 on.

13.5m over 11 years he spent.

I mean you can try and fit that into your agenda however you like, but thats a fact, so is the fact that we went almost 2 seasons without signing a first team player.

 

[davek]

Not entirely sure I agree with on Martinez's transfer record, but I'll give you Moyes era punts. Worth noting that a few we let go under Moyes are now prem players of differing quality - Duffy, Mustaphi, and Dier.

Still, compared to past summer I'll give them both a free pass!

Lukaku, Deulofeu, Barry, Holgate, Mori, McCarthy, Lennon. In my estimation and looking on the TW player transactions under RM there was about 16 players all told who could be seen as bought and meant to be first team signings in his three seasons here.

Koeman signed 14 players for the first team in three windows and I'd say only Gueye, Lookman, Pickford and Rooney have proven themselves.

 

[davek]

Krøldrup £5m
Beattie £6m

I think Moyes worked best when he was forced into action. His best signings were within the £2m-£4m mark after that he got confused.

Heard Lescott saying it took him 2 years to scout him then 2 weeks to sign him.

Where Martinez spent money I think he largely spent it well in Lukaku, McCarthy and Mori (Niasse was a howler*). He didn't do all that well with his £2m-£4m signings in the main.

*Before you start he was a Martinez signing and not some mythical board conspiracy to tarnish his record.

We have to bear in mind massive price inflation since Moyes was here. Talking about £5/6M now as if it were nothing is not correct. It was a large amount of cash then.

 

[davek]

So if 7th and 5th are nowhere, then how did Martinez succeed? Because if 5th is nowhere then that's not elite club level either is it? Therefore only one of them managed it in any one season and that was Moyes with his 4th placed finish.

He succeeded in getting us to come out from behind the couch when facing the elite and it worked well enough for his first 18 months. Then the wheels came off, partly due to players who couldn't get any better to move on to another level and so threw their toys out the pram and partly because Martinez was too stubborn to bend the stick a bit and act pragmatically instead of ideologically.

He was easily our most tactically astute manager out of the last three FT manager's we've had (I refuse to even include Allardyce as an Everton manager as he's just a caretaker for a few months).

 

[davek]

I really don't see how this is a debate.

The point is to win games AND entertain. Martinez's first season is the only time we have done this since Kendall.

Koeman was dire; Moyes exerted discipline but nothing else. Martinez is the only real manager we've had since Royle (discounting HKIII).

 

[davek]

13.5m over 11 years he spent.

I mean you can try and fit that into your agenda however you like, but thats a fact, so is the fact that we went almost 2 seasons without signing a first team player.

You appear to not grasp what's being stated. It matters not what the overall 11 season figure was; the bulk of the selling was done in the last 4 seasons. Up until that point he had a net spend of £36M...a tidy sum for the period.

More inconvenient truths.

 

[R934]

@davek I'm not use to agreeing with you - generally I just lurk in the background reading posts and shake my head in disagreement [and no thats not an innuendo at least I think as much]

 

[TraffordBlue]

He succeeded in getting us to come out from behind the couch when facing the elite and it worked well enough for his first 18 months. Then the wheels came off, partly due to players who couldn't get any better to move on to another level and so threw their toys out the pram and partly because Martinez was too stubborn to bend the stick a bit and act pragmatically instead of ideologically.

He was easily our most tactically astute manager out of the last three FT manager's we've had (I refuse to even include Allardyce as an Everton manager as he's just a caretaker for a few months).

Astute at what? Grasping draws and defeats from the jaws of victory?

Arsenal at home. 2-0 up after 83 minutes, drew 2-2.
Dynamo Kiev away (Cup). Go 3-2 up on aggregate with an away goal. Lose 5-2 on the night.
Bournemouth away. 2-0 up with 80 mins gone. Concede 3 goals in the final 18 minutes and one of them after retaking the lead in the 95th.
Stoke at home. Get ourselves 3-2 up with 71 mins gone. Lose 4-3.
Chelsea away. See Bournemouth except we let them equalise the first time just 10 minutes after going 2-0 up.
Man City away (Cup). Go 3-1 up on aggregate after 18 mins in the 2nd leg, lose 4-3 in the end.
West Ham at home. 2-0 up with 78 gone. Concede 3 goals in 12 minutes and lose 3-2.

He had one great season followed by 2 pathetic ones where he happened to give us some good cup moments. 2013-14 was great but he undid all his good work in the following 2 seasons.

 

[hktoffee]

It's a fact.

Moyes had a net spend every season between his first full season in 2002/03 to season 2008/09 (with the exception of season 2004/05 when Rooney was sold). In that period he had a net spend of £36M.

Yes, he had a low net spend overall in his tenure of 11 seasons, but the purse strings were shut late on in his time here from season 2009/10 on.

Moyes did not leave in 2009 why did you left out the stats between 2009-2012? To suit your agenda perhaps?

 

[davek]

Astute at what? Grasping draws and defeats from the jaws of victory?

Arsenal at home. 2-0 up after 83 minutes, drew 2-2.
Dynamo Kiev away (Cup). Go 3-2 up on aggregate with an away goal. Lose 5-2 on the night.
Bournemouth away. 2-0 up with 80 mins gone. Concede 3 goals in the final 18 minutes and one of them after retaking the lead in the 95th.
Stoke at home. Get ourselves 3-2 up with 71 mins gone. Lose 4-3.
Chelsea away. See Bournemouth except we let them equalise the first time just 10 minutes after going 2-0 up.
Man City away (Cup). Go 3-1 up on aggregate after 18 mins in the 2nd leg, lose 4-3 in the end.
West Ham at home. 2-0 up with 78 gone. Concede 3 goals in 12 minutes and lose 3-2.

He had one great season followed by 2 pathetic ones where he happened to give us some good cup moments. 2013-14 was great but he undid all his good work in the following 2 seasons.

Games against top teams where we outplayed them, got ahead in the games/ties but failed to see it through...and you ask where tactics come into it.

Oh for some tactical ineptitude like that these grim days.

 

[marsh]

Roberto In

 

[TraffordBlue]

Games against top teams where we outplayed them, got ahead in the games/ties but failed to see it through...and you ask where tactics come into it.

Oh for some tactical ineptitude like that these grim days.

Doesn't matter if you don't win at the end of it. We didn't outplay Dynamo Kiev either.

To be fair to Martinez, the Arsenal 3-0 in the 13/14 season was the only time since i've been going where we have truly taken apart a top team. You could say the City 4-0 last season but we rode our luck in that game. We absolutely outclassed Arsenal in the 3-0 but that was the season when everyone was behind him as he was great in that season.

 

[orly]

Koeman was dire; Moyes exerted discipline but nothing else. Martinez is the only real manager we've had since Royle (discounting HKIII).

STFU