Oh 100%, if TFG move Moyes on then I'd say all bets are off on Grealish but the likelihood of Moyes moving on this summer doesn't feel high at the moment, to me at least.
Re the playing side of things - I understand what you're saying - he's 30(?) now and has had to adapt his game a bit, but he has genuine quality and while he can slow us down, he's also far more creative than pretty much any other player we have and he seems to get more out of other players, KDH in particular.
In any side you want a balance of younger players and more experience - I think going all out for younger players, as Chelsea have done for example, is never going to get you where you want to be, but equally you don't want to be in a position of having an entire team of 30 odd year olds, there have been times in the last we've got dangerously close to that, so the age profile is fine to have reservations about, but I can live with a 3 year deal if it's balanced out by younger profile signings - in fact it was last summer, we just haven't seen much of them
I agree mate i think its a mix of profiles young and old, i actually think what we might be doing with Grealish is have him and develop George behind him, while we have Illy - we will develop Dibling - as much as people think there isn't a plan i think there is.
I get what you are saying and i think Jack is easy on the eye, i do feel however think we haven't really moved the dial all that much in creativity or goal scoring - we are still one of the lowest in the league and to that degree we still rely massively on a very competent defense to get results. Despite having some enjoyable results like Utd and the weekend - we still struggle to break down teams who sit and play a low block and ask questions of us creatively.
While i dont have an axe to grind particularly with our creative players - Grealsih included, i do think creativity and goal scoring is an area we can certainly improve. Id also cavet that by saying others in the team (full backs) feed in to that threat and that can improve.
But the above may lead us into difficult decisions, if we want to improve our creativity, if we want to score more goals and we're not particularly unhappy with Grealish or Ndiaye or even KDH - then how to we add another dimension or variance to improve it, full back is admittedly one way - but im also not sure that will be the smoking gun.
Largely we are team that still plays % football, if we are to truly compete with CL clubs we need more creatively - for teams to fear us breaking them down - i don't think they do at the moment and our defense is still our best line.
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MichaelEFC96
Player Valuation: £20m
toffeeblue9
Player Valuation: £35m
I agree with every single word you've written here.
From the point of view of creativity, I don't think Grealish is a problem at all. There are glaring issues around the team though in that regard.
There's nothing at all in full back areas, we have KDH who's relatively creative (and more so when Grealish is next to him), Jimmy Garner to a degree but his game is more about his energy, drive and efficiency (and I'm beginning to think that long term he's a perfect number 6), but we've not really found any other creativity in the middle of the park. We also have two strikers who, while you can make arguments about their relative merits (not especially strong arguments most of the time), are technically poor and don't create much for runners from midfield etc. even Ndiaye, who is a wonderful player, isn't actually particularly creative. He beats players and he's a goal threat, but he doesn't create a *huge* amount, relatively speaking.
There are definitely creativity issues in the team. Away games and games like Saturday where you expect the opposition to have more of the ball and commit more men forward, suit us currently but the issue of creating chances against teams who are going to sit back a little more at Hill Dickinson is one we will need to address next season. To me, Grealish helps with this, but he's only one part of the solution.
Dykovski200
Player Valuation: £10m
There’s room for both of them, good teams have good back ups, we can’t just have a good 11 we need a good squad.
This is thing mate - which is why i say there are maybe some difficult decisions to make if we are to improve.
If we agree Ndiaye isn't particularly creative and Grealish can slow play down, then for me there are question on blend. Ndaye for me isnt a winger in my opinion, hes a wing forward - in the sense Salah is not a winger. Jack is a winger, do they complement each other on opposite flanks - im not so sure. Both rely on dribbling - while dribbling is easy on the eye and often you will get a cross or shot in - it also holds up play and allows defenders to set up and take care of our striker - if you watch us with Grealsih and Illy in the team, Barry and Beto are often well picked up because its taken us an age to get the ball in. Compare that with Beto two goals at the weekend that were quick ball into his feet with space to run into.
While i think Illy and Grealish are super players - are they the best blend in the team and does that combination make us slow and telegraphed in the transition - it was getting to a point with both that they were both double marked. I think having both is questionable - i perhaps think maybe having pace on one side would be more creative for us.
It might be the case, if we do stick with Grealish and Ndaiye then - the width will come form full backs and the two wide players come inside.
I also think we could be a bit adventurous in midfield, id move away from the double pivot of two defensive midfiders and play with Garner, KDH and another more creative 8.
I think our strikers get a lot of stick, but i also think we are poor creating anything for them and that's what we need to improve - Barry and Beto have 12 PL between them for the season - controversially maybe - im going to say that's a good retune from that no 9 position in a David Moyes team- if we had one player who scored 12 by them selves at this stage of the season we'd be made up.
Very good question - over to you The 3 Amigos
toffeeblue9
Player Valuation: £35m
I don't think we really disagree.
Re the blend of Grealish and Ndiaye as wide players, I think it's probably only going to be fair to judge whether that works going forward or not when you competent full backs who can contribute in the attacking phases of play as well. We miss Jimmy Garner when he doesn't play in midfield, but he adds an extra dimension to our play from right back simply because we can play through lines with someone there and he can deliver a ball from wide areas.
If we have competent full backs behind Grealish and Ndiaye and we still have the same problems, I'd be more inclined to agree that sacrificing one of Ndiaye or Grealish might be the way to go and inject pace on one flank at least.
I also agree on midfield, but again Moyes is going to want legs in there and finding someone who's athletic enough to do the defensive work Moyes wants while at the same time adding to our creative output will be a big ask. The hope would be that Armstrong is eventually that player, but it's early days yet.
Striker - dunno. I see your point about the goals but I'm on the fence here. I think a more technically competent striker enables us to retain possession better and is able to find runners from midfield etc.
I don't think we are that far away. I think the way we play is understandable currently with the personnel we have, but recruitment becomes key. It reminds me a bit of the 2005 to 2007 period where we transitioned from being a purely defensive team to adding creativity (Baines, Arteta, Pienaar etc all joined and moved us from that counter attacking team who sneaked 4th place to one who was more comfortable playing throgh midfield and opening teams up at times).
I guess i dont really have a particualr point of view mate, im just sharing observations, analysis and asking open questions really, to durther the debate.
I think that is really healthy and more of a critique then criticism - its actually refreshing to have a discussion on improving, instead of having to be stuck like a limpet to praying someone like Grealish chooses us in the summer.
Im enjoying the discussion.
Personally i still think we are in recovery, we are still a % based team, who struggle with creativity and goal scoring and who largely rely on defense. Im delighted that we are now coopeting witht he likes of the much vaunted Brentfornd, Brighton and Bournmouth - thats a testament to MOyues IMO. But we do need to transition it, instead of relying on back to the wall performences andd odd goals we need crativity and goals and that will take transition and difficlt decsions i feel like the Grealish question etc.
I think Harrison Armstrong is the long term answer to Idrissa Gueye going out of the tram, Garner will go to 6 and Harrison to 8 - he reminds very much of a young Scott Parker.
I think we can probably get a better quality striker upfront but i do feel there is an underlying issue of creativity and if you are going to drop lets be honest the part of £50 mill on a striker - the creativity has to be effective. Which bring us back to the blend with Illy and Grealish.
Dont get me wrong Grelaish is brilliant, but is he the right player on a number of metrics for the team in terms of balance and blend in improving what we need to - im not convinced - could he be further unlocked by upgrading the supporting cast maybe....is there much headroom to go north or south in performances in the years ahead - oud probably have to say south. Maybe that's ok - if we want George in three years time....
I think its healthy to ask these questions as they are really important strategic decisions.
Vaughan
Player Valuation: £35m
we’re currently starting dwight mcneil with no real competition for his place and there are people discussing whether they want one of grealish or ndiaye in the side
baffling
also we know both are quality, we dropped 40mil on the highest rated young wide player in england and hes barely had a sniff
i am confident we will snap up a good deal for grealish with city and he’ll come on a lower contract than his current wages
i am a bit less confident but still sure we can extend ndiayes contract if we get europe
baffling
also we know both are quality, we dropped 40mil on the highest rated young wide player in england and hes barely had a sniff
i am confident we will snap up a good deal for grealish with city and he’ll come on a lower contract than his current wages
i am a bit less confident but still sure we can extend ndiayes contract if we get europe
Going forward never should we making a choice's like this .
Seen enough dirg over the years to conclude we should never turn our backs on quality players .
All the top teams have quality in every position and quality backups to rotate.
Havent we learnt our lesson not having equal quality throughout the squad when the inevitable injuries and suspensions kick in.
But stating the obvious this costs money , lets hope the hiarchy can/ will do this.
Seen enough dirg over the years to conclude we should never turn our backs on quality players .
All the top teams have quality in every position and quality backups to rotate.
Havent we learnt our lesson not having equal quality throughout the squad when the inevitable injuries and suspensions kick in.
But stating the obvious this costs money , lets hope the hiarchy can/ will do this.
Came in to post this exact thing, yes we are on the back of some good results but we are starting Dwight McNeil ffs and folks don’t want Grealish? Immediately in the starting XI nevermind we need a squad…
Zatara
Player Valuation: £100m
Not sure I understand the issue here.
On the left hand side of the pitch we had Grealish. Now he's injured, Ndiaye has moved back there which is clearly his best position.
Do we sign Grealish (who some may consider not as good as Ndiaye or simply not an effective use of funds) who Moyes will certainly use left wing...or do we not sign him and use Ndiaye there?
If you prefer to discuss McNeil/Dibling/George for the right side then feel free to mimick this and setup a thread with a poll.
Vaughan
Player Valuation: £35m
I’d say we extend Ndiaye contract, sign Grealish, and sign a right winger too, especially if we are playing two games a week and have a war chest to spend
