Usmanov

[blulouie]

That's it.

It goes without saying Moshiri knows more about money than me. I actually agree with the fella, that I'd rather we didnt take a loan out. But what I can also see, if it's very consistent with how high net worth individuals operate.

There are lots of reasons to say why Usmanov is not formally involved (and may never be) but I'm not sure having a credit facility is one of them.

And yes, Moshiri I believe pumped another couple of hundred million in recently. I suspect we will see a pattern of lending the club money then diluting into shares to strengthen the balance sheet.

I've never got it me tbh.
Bill got pellters but we all knew he was way out of his depth money wise.
But he played a blinder getting these guy's on board , they are the very best at making money , so in turn that only bodes well for the club.
Only fools question how they go about their business .
Personnally i think as Goat said earlier, apart from maybe City & Chelsea I wouldnt swap our owners for anyone.
Money really is for the Money men.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Whatever Mr Moshiri & Mr Usmanov do with their money & assets means pretty much jack to the majority of Evertonians.
These guys deal in Billions & are very very sucessful at it.
Its not the greatest subject for us mere mortals to even be debating.
The club is virtually debt free , a World class manager at the helm and a state of the art stadium in the process.
Yet someone wants to make hay over interest rates.
Lets just leave that side of it to the people who know what they are doing.

The world class manager he is paying mega bucks to be here will be backed in the summer with whatever he wants. Those players will be getting paid mega bucks. Then they’ll all be playing in one of the best stadiums in the world in the near future.

But yeah that interest rate on that loan....

 

[gwladysnight]

I appreciate you noting that I know what I am talking about. Fair play, it takes a big man to acknowledge when someone who has a differing view has got it right.

The point about interests rates is not really related to how long we are borrowing for. They are different points.

Why is it a "ridiculous assertion" that the money "could" be paid back in the autumn. Of course it could be paid back then. It might not be, but it could be. That find that such a notion ridiculous sort of underpins your ignorance on this mate.

I know how the TV money works. However Football clubs lose a lot of cash flow over the summer months, with no fans in grounds etc (obviously that's a bit different this year but the point still stands).

As you've been decent and acknowledged I know what I'm talking about, I will say this, youve clearly got a lot of good knowledge. But you are a bit scatter gun in how you present it. Try to read what you're saying before you write it, and ask does it make any sense. As sometimes some good points you make can get a bit lost.

All the best.

Sadly for you I was being sarcastic about you knowing what you are talking about.

Everton do not lose a lot of cashflow over the summer months our annual gate receipts are £20m. Our biggest cashflow of the season actually comes from the TV payments that come at the end of the season.

As for reading perhaps you could read Chelsea's accounts before you make wild claims about Chelsea taking out bridging loans.

The best bit though is that the Rights and media payday loan could be paid back in the autumn. The thing is we have taken multiple loans which have been taken out against future TV revenues. Guess what they have never been paid back in the autumn. If you could read you would have realised that because when the loans are repaid the charges placed on the club are shown as satisfied.

We took out loans with RMFL on the 16th of July 2020 and on the 29th of April 2021 and neither charge has been satisfied. So twice in the space of 9 months we have taken out high interest loans with RMFL and a Government backed loan with Metro bank as well.

Yet you will still tell me we are backed by Usmanov.

 

[Connor]

Is that so?

Absolutely not

 

[catcherintherye]

Sadly for you I was being sarcastic about you knowing what you are talking about.

Everton do not lose a lot of cashflow over the summer months our annual gate receipts are £20m. Our biggest cashflow of the season actually comes from the TV payments that come at the end of the season.

As for reading perhaps you could read Chelsea's accounts before you make wild claims about Chelsea taking out bridging loans.

The best bit though is that the Rights and media payday loan could be paid back in the autumn. The thing is we have taken multiple loans which have been taken out against future TV revenues. Guess what they have never been paid back in the autumn. If you could read you would have realised that because when the loans are repaid the charges placed on the club are shown as satisfied.

We took out loans with RMFL on the 16th of July 2020 and on the 29th of April 2021 and neither charge has been satisfied. So twice in the space of 9 months we have taken out high interest loans with RMFL and a Government backed loan with Metro bank as well.

Yet you will still tell me we are backed by Usmanov.

But I've not told you we are backed by Usmanov. That's sort of where it all falls down a bit mate.

 

[catcherintherye]

The world class manager he is paying mega bucks to be here will be backed in the summer with whatever he wants. Those players will be getting paid mega bucks. Then they’ll all be playing in one of the best stadiums in the world in the near future.

But yeah that interest rate on that loan....

I'll be honest I was surprised the rate wasnt higher.

I know some are talking about the inter bank loan rate as if it's in any way comparable.

I'd say if Everton went to a commercial bank they would do well to get much better than 7%. I can understand going through b rate lenders is not ideal optically, but I can also see why the owners will not be worried about a 7% repayment rate.

 

[catcherintherye]

I've never got it me tbh.
Bill got pellters but we all knew he was way out of his depth money wise.
But he played a blinder getting these guy's on board , they are the very best at making money , so in turn that only bodes well for the club.
Only fools question how they go about their business .
Personnally i think as Goat said earlier, apart from maybe City & Chelsea I wouldnt swap our owners for anyone.
Money really is for the Money men.

Yes great post mate. I'm going to sleep now, but I'll try to give some thoughts tomorrow.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Sadly for you I was being sarcastic about you knowing what you are talking about.

Everton do not lose a lot of cashflow over the summer months our annual gate receipts are £20m. Our biggest cashflow of the season actually comes from the TV payments that come at the end of the season.

As for reading perhaps you could read Chelsea's accounts before you make wild claims about Chelsea taking out bridging loans.

The best bit though is that the Rights and media payday loan could be paid back in the autumn. The thing is we have taken multiple loans which have been taken out against future TV revenues. Guess what they have never been paid back in the autumn. If you could read you would have realised that because when the loans are repaid the charges placed on the club are shown as satisfied.

We took out loans with RMFL on the 16th of July 2020 and on the 29th of April 2021 and neither charge has been satisfied. So twice in the space of 9 months we have taken out high interest loans with RMFL and a Government backed loan with Metro bank as well.

Yet you will still tell me we are backed by Usmanov.

Well Usmanov is sponsoring Finch Farm for £12 million per year.

Paid £30 million to be front of a none existent que for naming rights for BMD

Will likely be paying £20+ million a year in said naming rights for BMD

Met Ancelotti prior to him becoming EFC manager

Numerous smaller sponserships with links to Usmanov tied into the club

Usmanovs relative working at the club

But aye Usmanov has absolutely no interest in Everton.

Oh and FFP prevents Usmanov from "bankrolling" us in the way Abramovich and Mansour have done before him.

Once FFP changes which Covid will likely speed up dont be suprised to see him come on board officially if FFP switches from the current income system to a more luxury tax / wages based system where owners can have more freedom to pump money in.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I'll be honest I was surprised the rate wasnt higher.

I know some are talking about the inter bank loan rate as if it's in any way comparable.

I'd say if Everton went to a commercial bank they would do well to get much better than 7%. I can understand going through b rate lenders is not ideal optically, but I can also see why the owners will not be worried about a 7% repayment rate.

We’ve had credit facilities with ICBC and Santander very recently. It’s not as though we couldn’t get one. I’d surmise that we’ve taken advantage of a favourable rate rather than been forced to go to the only provider who would have us.

 

[Rob17896]

You seem really angry here. Can I ask why? We are just having a civil conversation and I dont believe anyone has been rude to you?

To answer each point. I'm not sure I've ever referred to myself as a financial wizard. Can you point out to me where I have?

I'm not really aware where I would get a loan below 3% without security. Rather than being needlessly insulting, maybe you could share that information? I have a mortage at 2.5 % but that was with quite a large deposit up front and the property as liquidity.

Which bit was embarrassing for you? Asking you to explain where you can get a commercial loan at under 3% without security is embarrassing? A bit lost with that.

I buy and sell stakes in businesses yes. You are aware people trade over both much shorter, and longer periods than 3-6 months. Why would you find that so surprising?

In terms of due diligence, I like the Piotroski as a screener. I have an 8 point checklist too. If I can be getting 8+ on one and most of my checklist I'll move forward. I tend to prioritise PE, with Shiller PE to take account of inflation. Alongside this, I like ROIC and ROIC to WACC to be positive. I'm also a big fan of the DCF method of valuation. I'm not going to go into detail about the method I would use, it revolves around Cash and growth. It gives me an idea of my entry point, which I want to be well below the intrinsic value of the business. Finally I'll read the 10k, and make sure I'm familiar and confident with the management.

I think you've misunderstood on me saying I'll grow a business I didnt say that. Businesses never grow that much in that time. I'm surprised you've thought that a possibility. Business can grow 20% yoy and with a leverage of 4-5 x that gives me an 80-100% return on borrowing at 7-8%.

It works for me. I dont have an enormous amount of capital currently so it really suits where I am. I can fully respect you might disagree with the use of debt, but theres really no need to say I am lying. Likewise it is also wholly untrue to say it is atypical of how a number of investors into businesses would operate.

Obviously I'm more than happy to discuss the rational of each decision I make and why I do it, but let's not conduct the discussion in a nasty manner eh?

Your reference to property as liquidity when buying it is totally the wrong terminology. Also you meant rationale rather than rational.

Business is also not limited in annual growth. I know some that have grown 400% and have personally been involved in one that did 100% two years running. Not boasting as that was followed by a few numbers in brackets in later years.

I am not saying you don't do as you claim, but if you want to impress by using terms that show you are in the know, it would help if you understood them

 

[gwladysnight]

Well Usmanov is sponsoring Finch Farm for £12 million per year.

Paid £30 million to be front of a none existent que for naming rights for BMD

Will likely be paying £20+ million a year in said naming rights for BMD

Met Ancelotti prior to him becoming EFC manager

Numerous smaller sponserships with links to Usmanov tied into the club

Usmanovs relative working at the club

But aye Usmanov has absolutely no interest in Everton.

Oh and FFP prevents Usmanov from "bankrolling" us in the way Abramovich and Mansour have done before him.

Once FFP changes which Covid will likely speed up dont be suprised to see him come on board officially if FFP switches from the current income system to a more luxury tax / wages based system where owners can have more freedom to pump money in.

Usmanov isn't sponsoring anything, though USM is. A holding company whose chairman is Moshiri.

If Usmanov is bankrolling us then why have we had to take out two high interest loans with RMFL.

 

[gwladysnight]

I'll be honest I was surprised the rate wasnt higher.

I know some are talking about the inter bank loan rate as if it's in any way comparable.

I'd say if Everton went to a commercial bank they would do well to get much better than 7%. I can understand going through b rate lenders is not ideal optically, but I can also see why the owners will not be worried about a 7% repayment rate.

The whole point is that if we were owned by Usmanov then USM has assets of $23bn. So even if he didn't want to use his own cash USM could take out a loan at a very low rate and provide Everton with an intercompany loan.

 

[catcherintherye]

Your reference to property as liquidity when buying it is totally the wrong terminology. Also you meant rationale rather than rational.

Business is also not limited in annual growth. I know some that have grown 400% and have personally been involved in one that did 100% two years running. Not boasting as that was followed by a few numbers in brackets in later years.

I am not saying you don't do as you claim, but if you want to impress by using terms that show you are in the know, it would help if you understood them

I'm not trying to impress mate. The guy asked how I would go about selecting businesses to invest in and I shared the outline of my approach. I'm sure there will be criticisms but it was more just to underline if a comparatively very small investor like me can see the value of borrowing at a certain rate, it's quite likely a big investor can.

As for the property point, it was just a point to explain why at times you would choose to borrow some money rather than just buying something outright. Not everyone, but most people who invest in properties will try to spread their funds across multiple assets rather than just buying 1 outright if doing so for investment purposes. Essentially the potential growth (and opportunity to secure a return from rents) outways the servicing costs on the loan.

I'm sure some businesses do grow 400%- particularly in the early phases. As a rule though, it's quite rare, and it's a lot more common for the price of a business to rise 100% in a year than for its turnover to rise 100%.

I'm glad you've pointed out businesses can rise that quickly though, as if you look back the guy in question was making the point that businesses cant grow by 80% in a year. As you say, businesses can grow substantially, it's not common but it can happen. Fair play to you for being involved with one.

 

[catcherintherye]

The whole point is that if we were owned by Usmanov then USM has assets of $23bn. So even if he didn't want to use his own cash USM could take out a loan at a very low rate and provide Everton with an intercompany loan.

That wasnt my point though. You've not really listened to the point I was making and have just gone off on a bit of a tangent again.

But yes he could lend us the money. The point is if (and it's an if) he is the owner would this be the most efficient use of his funds?

 

[matty1878]

He funds us simple fact. If that’s legit or not

I don’t give a hoot if we’re eventually successful