Current Affairs Ukraine

[bluebud]

This Guy ??

 

[bluebud]

Putin is suing Nikes over their new poster campaign:-

 

[tsubaki]

This Guy ??

He is wrong though, yes we absolutely need to remove ourselves from dependence on Russian gas / oil whatever but doing it now will damage economies and communal feeling just when we need people to come together to build defences. It took years for us to get into this state and it will take years to get out of it.

 

[bluebud]

He is wrong though, yes we absolutely need to remove ourselves from dependence on Russian gas / oil whatever but doing it now will damage economies and communal feeling just when we need people to come together to build defences. It took years for us to get into this state and it will take years to get out of it.

So your saying because it will cost Europeans a few more euros to heat their houses and make them sad we should continue to pay Putin billions of euros so he can continue to fund his war?

 

[tsubaki]

So your saying because it will cost Europeans a few more euros to heat their houses and make them sad we should continue to pay Putin billions of euros so he can continue to fund his war?

No, I’m saying that at a time we need to pour billions of euro, pounds and dollars into our defence budgets, during a big rise in the cost of living it’s not a good idea to cause significant damage to a large swath of industry and agriculture.

Also there is the effect on international and communal unity. If the EU does this there are at least two and probably three countries that will refuse. If politicians do this which will further ruin hundreds of thousands of people (via cost of living, shutdowns and so on) whilst themselves protected from the consequences (see all the MPs whose energy bills, wages and pensions are paid for example) we will not have the unity we desperately need.

These actions have the increasing look of doing-somethingism. We need urgently a long term, effective plan to deal with this not more gestures.

 

[bluebud]

No, I’m saying that at a time we need to pour billions of euro, pounds and dollars into our defence budgets, during a big rise in the cost of living it’s not a good idea to cause significant damage to a large swath of industry and agriculture.

Also there is the effect on international and communal unity. If the EU does this there are at least two and probably three countries that will refuse. If politicians do this which will further ruin hundreds of thousands of people (via cost of living, shutdowns and so on) whilst themselves protected from the consequences (see all the MPs whose energy bills, wages and pensions are paid for example) we will not have the unity we desperately need.

These actions have the increasing look of doing-somethingism. We need urgently a long term, effective plan to deal with this not more gestures.

All I’m reading here is that you think money in Europeans pockets is more important than cutting off Putins war funds.

 

[roydo]

All I’m reading here is that you think money in Europeans pockets is more important than cutting off Putins war funds.

In that case, I think you are reading it wrong. If you have an economy/population hugely dependent on one source of energy, you cant just replace that overnight. Luckily, the UK aint hugely dependent on him, but plenty across Europe are.

 

[Seanjd]

So your saying because it will cost Europeans a few more euros to heat their houses and make them sad we should continue to pay Putin billions of euros so he can continue to fund his war?

There isn’t much evidence to support the effectiveness of sanctions. There’s lots of research to suggest that sanctioning often supports the propaganda machine of the country they’re intended to harm, and that they have much wider negative repercussions for innocent people in that country and economically around the world. There’s also no evidence to support that they stop or shorten wars.

 

[tsubaki]

All I’m reading here is that you think money in Europeans pockets is more important than cutting off Putins war funds.

That isn't it at all. Industry and agriculture (and the population) need that gas at the moment; its not possible to totally replace it from other sources and even when it can be replaced its by raising the price for the rest of the world who also need it (which causes diplomatic blowback on us at a time we dont need it).

5-10 years of effort can reduce the amount of gas we need permanently, which means less money for Russia (and other suspect regimes). That is what we must do, together with loads of other things to protect us (all of which need money).

 

[Goat]

 

[efcfanwirral]

No, I’m saying that at a time we need to pour billions of euro, pounds and dollars into our defence budgets, during a big rise in the cost of living it’s not a good idea to cause significant damage to a large swath of industry and agriculture.

Also there is the effect on international and communal unity. If the EU does this there are at least two and probably three countries that will refuse. If politicians do this which will further ruin hundreds of thousands of people (via cost of living, shutdowns and so on) whilst themselves protected from the consequences (see all the MPs whose energy bills, wages and pensions are paid for example) we will not have the unity we desperately need.

These actions have the increasing look of doing-somethingism. We need urgently a long term, effective plan to deal with this not more gestures.

All I’m reading here is that you think money in Europeans pockets is more important than cutting off Putins war funds.

Its an interesting question - where is the line where defending Ukraine comes at the sacrifice of the poorest in our own society? Is it the single most important issue, above their own wellbeing, for those who can't afford to heat their homes or feed their families? I'd venture that they're probably ok with it for now due to the news, but come next winter I doubt they'll be as sympathetic.

But as the cost of living crisis up until now was going to happen anyway, by pretending its ALL down to Putin isn't going to help governments keep public opinion behind it when we actually do feel the squeeze from the sanctions. I'm not sure much we're seeing yet is down to the sanctions just yet, just the inevitable consequences of the past 2 years.

I guess the answer has to be make those of us who can afford to pay more, pay more and make sure it actually goes to help those who need it. Or maybe they've got other plans for those who they seem to be refusing to guarantee helping next winter...

 

[bluebud]

In that case, I think you are reading it wrong. If you have an economy/population hugely dependent on one source of energy, you cant just replace that overnight. Luckily, the UK aint hugely dependent on him, but plenty across Europe are.

The EU has enough gas reserves for the short term, nobody will be getting cut off, plus we’re moving towards the summer months now so gas demands will diminish. In the long term (next winter) alternative sources may be required. The EU are in talks with The US, Norway, Qatar, Azerbaijan, Algeria, Egypt, Turkey, Japan and South Korea about increasing supply. Algeria probably the most likely alternative option, they already supply Italy and Spain with the majority of their imported gas.

 

[Whiteandblue]

Problems regarding the availability of gas are related to the needs of the industry, not that much domestic heating. Its all about the money.

 

[toffee82]

I'd say there's a big divide between what is happening in Ukraine and what the Asians believe.. Both here and the countries which they originate from

All the Asians I've discussed the slaughter and genocide in Ukraine with, have had my blood boiling. Many pretend to take a neutral stance and just arrogantly brush aside the details of the genocide taking place in Ukraine. There's a few that openly and casually say "it's western propaganda" and many blame NATO

I guess Asians subconsciously have grudges and grievances stemming from the days of the Raj.

I'm not racist but just feel Asian community leaders need to educate their communities regarding freedom, good and evil

It isn't the Greeks, it's the Chinese he's after!

 

[tsubaki]

Its an interesting question - where is the line where defending Ukraine comes at the sacrifice of the poorest in our own society? Is it the single most important issue, above their own wellbeing, for those who can't afford to heat their homes or feed their families? I'd venture that they're probably ok with it for now due to the news, but come next winter I doubt they'll be as sympathetic.

But as the cost of living crisis up until now was going to happen anyway, by pretending its ALL down to Putin isn't going to help governments keep public opinion behind it when we actually do feel the squeeze from the sanctions. I'm not sure much we're seeing yet is down to the sanctions just yet, just the inevitable consequences of the past 2 years.

I guess the answer has to be make those of us who can afford to pay more, pay more and make sure it actually goes to help those who need it. Or maybe they've got other plans for those who they seem to be refusing to guarantee helping next winter...

It isn't so much the direct effect - in terms of gas-dependent poor people being unable to heat their homes - its about the indirect effects for industry, which at present uses a lot of this gas. If you cut that supply it has all manner of knock-on effects here and abroad (increased costs of gas, increased production costs, increased costs of the finished product to consumers who might have to pass that on to their consumers etc) which are not easily mitigated.

Yes, a cost of living crisis was going to happen and yes it will be with us for some time but the solution to that are long-term structural changes to reduce the cost of energy rather than gimmicks.