Truly world class.........?

[Papa Shango]

May have been covered further back in the thread but it surely just depends how you define the term world class? Being the best left back in arguably the best league in the world would give you a pretty solid shout of being world class in my opinion. But of course some people can’t look at individual performances and will only say someone’s world class if they play for a top team. So if baines has played at the exact same level but for Barcelona instead of us he’d have suddenly become world class in their eyes.

He just wasn't though. He was a very good premier league player. He didn't shine at international level either (to be fair its hard to shine in that team).

He was good, nothing wrong with just being that.

 

[Cool_Blue]

Limpar. When me and my old man had season tickets at that time, he was the one player that got me out of my seat when he received the ball. Remember when Joe took over and frequently left him out, the disappointment when we took our seats as the team was read out and he wasn’t in it. His pace and unpredictability was fantastic.

p.s. I forgave him for trying to relegate us in the Wimbledon game lol

 

[JimmyK]

He just wasn't though. He was a very good premier league player. He didn't shine at international level either (to be fair its hard to shine in that team).

He was good, nothing wrong with just being that.

The premier league is a much higher standard than the vast majority of international football.

It always makes me laugh that people think shining against Viktoria Plzen in the CL and being MOTM in a home friendly against Trinidad & Tobago means more than performing week in week out in the PL/la liga.

Try and tell someone now that dignes better than Robertson and they’ll point out that one is playing in the CL final and the other finished 8th in the league. 2 years ago when one was at Barcelona and the other being relegated at hull they’d have laughed at you even mentioning them in the same breath. It just makes me laugh how so many people can’t see past the prestige level to actually judge individual quality.

 

[BigMick]

Phil Neville was a world class pointer.

 

[KaiserEFC]

May have been covered further back in the thread but it surely just depends how you define the term world class? Being the best left back in arguably the best league in the world would give you a pretty solid shout of being world class in my opinion. But of course some people can’t look at individual performances and will only say someone’s world class if they play for a top team. So if baines has played at the exact same level but for Barcelona instead of us he’d have suddenly become world class in their eyes.

I gauge it on Ashley Cole who did it for club and country. Was Baines as good as Cole? Not even close.

He was just a standout player in an Everton side.

 

[JimmyK]

I gauge it on Ashley Cole who did it for club and country. Was Baines as good as Cole? Not even close.

He was just a standout player in an Everton side.

He was better than Cole for 2 seasons, no doubt at all about that in my mind. Cole had the better overall career, clearly, but for a couple of years when Baines was at his peak he had the edge on him for me (and his fellow pros who were voting for him in PFA teams of the year it would seem).

 

[KaiserEFC]

He was better than Cole for 2 seasons, no doubt at all about that in my mind. Cole had the better overall career, clearly, but for a couple of years when Baines was at his peak he had the edge on him for me (and his fellow pros who were voting for him in PFA teams of the year it would seem).

That may be true but Cole at his best was leagues above Baines at his and as you said Cole had a far better career

 

[JimmyK]

That may be true but Cole at his best was leagues above Baines at his and as you said Cole had a far better career

But that's irrelevant in the context of the discussion. The point being made was that Baines AT HIS BEST could be classed as world class. Whether Cole was better than him at other times in his life is neither here nor there. If you're talking about someone being world class for their entire career then I agree, Baines comes nowhere near. If you're accepting that a player may be top class for a period but either side of that be of a lesser standard, then there is definitely an argument that Baines was world class in that sort of 2010-12 period.

 

[twoblue]

Following on from one of @Joey66 recent pictures, he described Ray Wilson as “a great left back in the world”! Got me thinking about the truly world class players I’ve seen play for Everton.

So here’s my small but classy list of the the ones i’ve actually seen and would deem to be world class..............

Alex Young
Ray Wilson
Alan Ball
Neville Southall
Andre Kanchelskis

All depends I suppose on the definition of World Class - so i’ll sit back and wait for the Tony Hibbert, Leon Osman and Ashley Williams shouts!

This what Everton have lacked in comparison to rivals. Think about spurs who i would say have been a similar sized club over the last 50 years. Gareth bale, Hoddle, Gascogne, Sheringham, Kane. On top of that they have had berbatov, ginola, Erickson.
I would say Rooney has been our only truely world class player. Kanchelskis was fantastic for a season or two but can we really say he was better than the spurs player above in career comparison?

 

[Deleted member 38674]

As other people have said, I suspect this all hinges on the definition of 'World Class', which is a term that gets thrown around.

For me, World Class would suggest top 10 in their position. Any stricter than that (ala top 5 only) and you miss too many top quality players. Any looser than that (ala top 15 / top 20) and you open it up to too many that aren't at that level.

In which case, there is probably only Baines (at a stretch) that would qualify as World Class by that definition, over the last 25-30 years.

 

[JimmyK]

As with all things a lot depends on the definition. Lots say a player who could get into any team in the world. Others might say capable of winning a game for a team, or someone who performs in the biggest of games. Others may look to consistency over a period or "numbers" showing up. Me I like the idea of a "wow" factor. Each of the above criteria throws up different names really.

There's little doubt Baines was one of the best fullbacks in the world while here, but he probably didn't have the wow factor of say a Rooney. He also didn't turn up in big games in a way that say a Ferguson, Cahill or Kanchelskis did. Of the teams I've watched I'd probably only say Baines, maybe Kanchelskis were close to being good enough to get in any team in the world.

As for Wow factor, for me it will always be Rooney in his first spell here. The numbers don't really show it up, but beyond the numbers he put in some incredible displays. The fact Manchester United (champions) went in to Alex Ferguson and told him to sign him as they couldn't get near him in a game (in the same way they did with Roanldo) indicates that.

You see the player who broke into the England team in 2004, around better players and the impact he initially had and you saw the all-round player. I'll never forget the home games against Bolton, or that match against Manchester United where he just ran the game. There was one away at Leicester when we went down to 10 men, where he was brilliant as well. Ironically we didn't win any of those games but he was top class.

Lets put it this way,not only did he have a wow factor, but I'd also say that he would have got a place in any of our title winning teams in some position or other.

That game against Bolton was hands down the best individual performance I've ever seen from an Everton player. Possibly from any player in the flesh. It was genuinely breathtaking. Incredible that, as you say, it didn't actually help us win the game.

 

[Papa Shango]

The premier league is a much higher standard than the vast majority of international football.

It always makes me laugh that people think shining against Viktoria Plzen in the CL and being MOTM in a home friendly against Trinidad & Tobago means more than performing week in week out in the PL/la liga.

Try and tell someone now that dignes better than Robertson and they’ll point out that one is playing in the CL final and the other finished 8th in the league. 2 years ago when one was at Barcelona and the other being relegated at hull they’d have laughed at you even mentioning them in the same breath. It just makes me laugh how so many people can’t see past the prestige level to actually judge individual quality.

It is. So he should be able to shine at a lower level surely?

I think those who are saying Baines was not world class are judging him perfectly fairly. Nobody is saying he was crap just that he was very good but not quite world class. I think that's fair enough personally.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having him in the discussion but nah not for me.

 

[Tubey]

Rooney and Kanchelskis are the only two I'd place in the 'definitely world class' category.

Anyone saying Lukaku genuinely has a screw loose.

 

[JimmyK]

It is. So he should be able to shine at a lower level surely?

I think those who are saying Baines was not world class are judging him perfectly fairly. Nobody is saying he was crap just that he was very good but not quite world class. I think that's fair enough personally.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having him in the discussion but nah not for me.

I agree, it's perfectly fair not to include him. My point was originally aimed at somebody who was scoffing at the idea, which I think is wrong, because he was certainly there or thereabouts even if not quite at that level. As I said originally, it all depends what your definition of world class is. Personally I'd tend to agree with the definition used by @Keiran above, of being 'top 10' in your position out of the thousands of professional footballers in the world. Anybody who doesn't think Baines would have been in that discussion when he was in his mid 20s is, in my opinion, either very harsh or didn't see him.

 

[catcherintherye]

That game against Bolton was hands down the best individual performance I've ever seen from an Everton player. Possibly from any player in the flesh. It was genuinely breathtaking. Incredible that, as you say, it didn't actually help us win the game.

It was a surreal game, as I remember we were in competition with Bolton a bit and up in the top 6 of the table, so it was a winnable game. So you had the frustration of not picking up 3 points, but that had to be balanced against absolutely hammering them, hitting the bar, post etc etc. Allardyce sort of Allardyced us for a 0-0 really.

Rooney had only just turned 17 then as well. He was phenomenal. Just light years ahead of everyone on the pitch.

How long have you watched Everton for? It's some statement that. I do think in years to come, Rooney will be a bit of a cult thing for Everton fans who saw him. Those who are older than me will remember the 80's team. Those who are younger will have not seen him. However he was the most electric player I've seen for Everton in his first spell. The entire world wanted to sign him.