Tonights Debate : Clinton v Trump

[Ruairi77]

Excellent post! @RaleighBlue

 

[Tubey]

I get that Clinton is the face of a corrupt and broken system. I do. I understand that a large section of the American populace feels disillusionment towards our government. I do as well, although I put at least some of the blame on the underlying system itself. Our government is led by corporate interests and Hillary is in bed with those interests. Additionally, Clinton represents the status quo - the wealthy remain wealthy, while the rest of us continue our struggle. I very much dislike Clinton's connections with economic and military conservative movements (regardless of whether they portray themselves as conservative, large corporations are conservative movements by nature).

That said, I do not think the correct strategy is to elect someone that is completely out of his depth, racist, violent, and generally incompetent. It 'sends a message' while burning your house down. It's the very definition of Pyrrhic victory. Donald Trump is a populist that preys on the fear of the underclass, while remaining comfortably friendly with corporate interests and the wealthy. He blames the 'other' for our present problems. In this case, Mexicans, refugees, liberals, gangs, what-have-you. I do not believe the man is a Fascist. But he swings extremely close to that line.

Is our frustration with the system worth subjugating our deepest held beliefs?

I am by no means a 'patriot'. I question what nationality is (hint: imaginary). I am also enough of a student of history to realize that America has never been what it promised to be.

However, our strength has always come when we've actually embraced those original ideas (even if the populace didn't). This country has leapt forward every time that we have had a massive influx of immigrants. It has leapt forward every time the underclass has risen up in favor of progressivism (anti-monopoly/anti-trust, worker's rights, women's suffrage, civil rights). Every one of these has been painful at the time, but has benefited us in the long run.

Hillary Clinton is another politician - good points (women's rights, civil rights), and bad (corporate interests, secrecy, military record).

Donald Trump is a coup against reason and decency in favour of nationalism and prejudice. His election could very well be a catastrophically destabilizing act for the entire planet.

Anyone thinking that he's a good protest vote should rethink that strategy.

I'm still holding out hope that he's trolling us.

Agree with pretty much all of this, but unfortunately I think you are the odd one out in your country, and that your populace is dominated by idiots.

We'll see though. If you elect Trump though, the whole world will deservedly laugh at you forevermore.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Agree with pretty much all of this, but unfortunately I think you are the odd one out in your country, and that your populace is dominated by idiots.

We'll see though. If you elect Trump though, the whole world will deservedly laugh at you forevermore.

Oh I know.

Overestimating the intelligence of your opponent can be even more dangerous than underestimating it.

If we elect Trump, I legitimately hope that the worst that happens is that we get laughed at forever.

Also - protest voting: Don't do this. It is the democratic equivalent of slacktivism. Want change? Go out and protest. Go and make your voice heard. Run for office. Fundraise for politicians you DO believe in, especially at the local level. Go and DO something. Don't just get stroppy and do what you know in your head is stupid and lazy.

 

[ilikecheese]

Agree with pretty much all of this, but unfortunately I think you are the odd one out in your country, and that your populace is dominated by idiots.

We'll see though. If you elect Trump though, the whole world will deservedly laugh at you forevermore.

The Brexit campaign and the Trump campaign are one and the same. That NHS bus and Trump's wall are identical politically...very effective in that the average man/woman can latch onto it. Complete and utter BS, mind, but effective.

 

[Prevenger17]

I get that Clinton is the face of a corrupt and broken system. I do. I understand that a large section of the American populace feels disillusionment towards our government. I do as well, although I put at least some of the blame on the underlying system itself. Our government is led by corporate interests and Hillary is in bed with those interests. Additionally, Clinton represents the status quo - the wealthy remain wealthy, while the rest of us continue our struggle. I very much dislike Clinton's connections with economic and military conservative movements (regardless of whether they portray themselves as conservative, large corporations are conservative movements by nature).

See, this is what I don't get. You were describing Clinton, but you could have been describing any number of Presidents from Reagan onwards. Nothing's changed. The wealth gap is getting wider, the social gap too. Clinton doesn't just represent a continuation of that, she represents an advancement of it, and it won't stop while people elect the likes of her in, because it shows that their system is working. Divide people, bottleneck their opposing outlooks into two candidates and tell them they have a choice. If you keep electing Bushes and Clintons, then that's what you are going to keep getting.

Nobody is under any illusion as to the type of man Trump is, or the type of people that follow him, but without the support of either house or party (and make no mistake, most Republicans will privately be appalled at the idea of him in power), he's going to be completely impotent. Protests used to work in America, but Occupy Wall Street was a massive worldwide movement that did the sum of squat, because people are now too concerned with their reasonably comfortable lives to escalate it as necessary. It's a different landscape now, and I say when the opportunity comes along to make a radical statement that the powerful can't ignore, it should be grasped with both hands.

Do you honestly think, in 8 years' time, the class of candidate will be somehow better? It won't. The DNC worked privately to discredit and beat Sanders, were found out and nothing was said. The Republicans did the same to Ron Paul 4 years ago. There will have been lessons learned this time too, and they will be tightening up the system next time to make sure your "choice" is to their liking.

 

[RaleighBlue]

See, this is what I don't get. You were describing Clinton, but you could have been describing any number of Presidents from Reagan onwards. Nothing's changed. The wealth gap is getting wider, the social gap too. Clinton doesn't just represent a continuation of that, she represents an advancement of it, and it won't stop while people elect the likes of her in, because it shows that their system is working. Divide people, bottleneck their opposing outlooks into two candidates and tell them they have a choice. If you keep electing Bushes and Clintons, then that's what you are going to keep getting.

Nobody is under any illusion as to the type of man Trump is, or the type of people that follow him, but without the support of either house or party (and make no mistake, most Republicans will privately be appalled at the idea of him in power), he's going to be completely impotent. Protests used to work in America, but Occupy Wall Street was a massive worldwide movement that did the sum of squat, because people are now too concerned with their reasonably comfortable lives to escalate it as necessary. It's a different landscape now, and I say when the opportunity comes along to make a radical statement that the powerful can't ignore, it should be grasped with both hands.

Do you honestly think, in 8 years' time, the class of candidate will be somehow better? It won't. The DNC worked privately to discredit and beat Sanders, were found out and nothing was said. The Republicans did the same to Ron Paul 4 years ago. There will have been lessons learned this time too, and they will be tightening up the system next time to make sure your "choice" is to their liking.

So your suggestion is that Donald Trump will be completely impotent as President when the GOP controls the House and may control the Senate?

So you don't think they could conspire to implement further tax breaks on the rich? Or appoint ultra-conservative Supreme Court Justices? Or put troops on the ground in Syria? Or tighten immigration laws? Or implement Stop and Frisk as a legitimate police strategy?

Protest voting is stupid and lazy. Just because all protests don't immediately solve our problems doesn't mean that the solution is to turn the keys of the most powerful military on Earth over to your drunk, racist, belligerent Uncle. Occupy Wall Street didn't fix our economic problems. But it put things like the 1% into common parlance. You seem to expect massive change to occur overnight and be easy.

Let's deconstruct that with the civil right's movement. Which started in the 50's and is still going on today with Black Live Matter. Was MLK a waste of time? Should we have just elected George Wallace as a protest over how slow it was all going?

What do you actually expect the outcome of a Trump presidency to be? All the yahoo's that love him waking up and coming together under rainbows and peace? Republicans and Democrats putting down their arms and actually working for the betterment of society?

Politicians do, in the end, what the people demand. It takes a lot of time, because at first money outweighs the voice of the populace. But if that voice continues to grow, louder and louder, it becomes a deafening cacophony that cannot be ignored.

Voting for Trump as a sign you hate the way our government work is simply stupid and lazy.

 

[Boss_Blue]

See, this is what I don't get. You were describing Clinton, but you could have been describing any number of Presidents from Reagan onwards. Nothing's changed. The wealth gap is getting wider, the social gap too. Clinton doesn't just represent a continuation of that, she represents an advancement of it, and it won't stop while people elect the likes of her in, because it shows that their system is working. Divide people, bottleneck their opposing outlooks into two candidates and tell them they have a choice. If you keep electing Bushes and Clintons, then that's what you are going to keep getting.

Nobody is under any illusion as to the type of man Trump is, or the type of people that follow him, but without the support of either house or party (and make no mistake, most Republicans will privately be appalled at the idea of him in power), he's going to be completely impotent. Protests used to work in America, but Occupy Wall Street was a massive worldwide movement that did the sum of squat, because people are now too concerned with their reasonably comfortable lives to escalate it as necessary. It's a different landscape now, and I say when the opportunity comes along to make a radical statement that the powerful can't ignore, it should be grasped with both hands.

Do you honestly think, in 8 years' time, the class of candidate will be somehow better? It won't. The DNC worked privately to discredit and beat Sanders, were found out and nothing was said. The Republicans did the same to Ron Paul 4 years ago. There will have been lessons learned this time too, and they will be tightening up the system next time to make sure your "choice" is to their liking.

So your suggestion is that Donald Trump will be completely impotent as President when the GOP controls the House and may control the Senate?

So you don't think they could conspire to implement further tax breaks on the rich? Or appoint ultra-conservative Supreme Court Justices? Or put troops on the ground in Syria? Or tighten immigration laws? Or implement Stop and Frisk as a legitimate police strategy?

Protest voting is stupid and lazy. Just because all protests don't immediately solve our problems doesn't mean that the solution is to turn the keys of the most powerful military on Earth over to your drunk, racist, belligerent Uncle. Occupy Wall Street didn't fix our economic problems. But it put things like the 1% into common parlance. You seem to expect massive change to occur overnight and be easy.

Let's deconstruct that with the civil right's movement. Which started in the 50's and is still going on today with Black Live Matter. Was MLK a waste of time? Should we have just elected George Wallace as a protest over how slow it was all going?

What do you actually expect the outcome of a Trump presidency to be? All the yahoo's that love him waking up and coming together under rainbows and peace? Republicans and Democrats putting down their arms and actually working for the betterment of society?

Politicians do, in the end, what the people demand. It takes a lot of time, because at first money outweighs the voice of the populace. But if that voice continues to grow, louder and louder, it becomes a deafening cacophony that cannot be ignored.

Voting for Trump as a sign you hate the way our government work is simply stupid and lazy.

 

[Joey66]

Agree with pretty much all of this, but unfortunately I think you are the odd one out in your country, and that your populace is dominated by idiots.

We'll see though. If you elect Trump though, the whole world will deservedly laugh at you forevermore.

Daily politics today Momentum support trump!

 

[SNova]

Can't wait till he's elected. The collective fume will be great.

 

[ilikecheese]

So your suggestion is that Donald Trump will be completely impotent as President when the GOP controls the House and may control the Senate?

So you don't think they could conspire to implement further tax breaks on the rich? Or appoint ultra-conservative Supreme Court Justices? Or put troops on the ground in Syria? Or tighten immigration laws? Or implement Stop and Frisk as a legitimate police strategy?

Protest voting is stupid and lazy. Just because all protests don't immediately solve our problems doesn't mean that the solution is to turn the keys of the most powerful military on Earth over to your drunk, racist, belligerent Uncle. Occupy Wall Street didn't fix our economic problems. But it put things like the 1% into common parlance. You seem to expect massive change to occur overnight and be easy.

Let's deconstruct that with the civil right's movement. Which started in the 50's and is still going on today with Black Live Matter. Was MLK a waste of time? Should we have just elected George Wallace as a protest over how slow it was all going?

What do you actually expect the outcome of a Trump presidency to be? All the yahoo's that love him waking up and coming together under rainbows and peace? Republicans and Democrats putting down their arms and actually working for the betterment of society?

Politicians do, in the end, what the people demand. It takes a lot of time, because at first money outweighs the voice of the populace. But if that voice continues to grow, louder and louder, it becomes a deafening cacophony that cannot be ignored.

Voting for Trump as a sign you hate the way our government work is simply stupid and lazy.

Big boys playground right there.

 

[glorydaze]

Can't wait till he's elected. The collective fume will be great.

You think he will?

 

[Jib in lad]

 

[Prevenger17]

So your suggestion is that Donald Trump will be completely impotent as President when the GOP controls the House and may control the Senate?

So you don't think they could conspire to implement further tax breaks on the rich? Or appoint ultra-conservative Supreme Court Justices? Or put troops on the ground in Syria? Or tighten immigration laws? Or implement Stop and Frisk as a legitimate police strategy?

Protest voting is stupid and lazy. Just because all protests don't immediately solve our problems doesn't mean that the solution is to turn the keys of the most powerful military on Earth over to your drunk, racist, belligerent Uncle. Occupy Wall Street didn't fix our economic problems. But it put things like the 1% into common parlance. You seem to expect massive change to occur overnight and be easy.

Let's deconstruct that with the civil right's movement. Which started in the 50's and is still going on today with Black Live Matter. Was MLK a waste of time? Should we have just elected George Wallace as a protest over how slow it was all going?

What do you actually expect the outcome of a Trump presidency to be? All the yahoo's that love him waking up and coming together under rainbows and peace? Republicans and Democrats putting down their arms and actually working for the betterment of society?

Politicians do, in the end, what the people demand. It takes a lot of time, because at first money outweighs the voice of the populace. But if that voice continues to grow, louder and louder, it becomes a deafening cacophony that cannot be ignored.

Voting for Trump as a sign you hate the way our government work is simply stupid and lazy.

I don't think voting Trump in will be a quick fix, far from it. And I agree that it may have the perverse effect of legitimising the opinions of the absolute tubes that comprise a large portion of his support. But it will at least ask questions of the two main political parties (who have an unopposed monopoly on the political dialogue), questions that they haven't had to ask themselves until now. It may not even work. But voting in Hillary definitely won't.

Well done to Occupy Wall Street for bringing 1% into common parlance. Meanwhile, in the following years, the wealth inequality chasm grows ever wider and the movement has yielded absolutely no return. Let's have a look at the Civil Rights movement. There was a long term goal that seemed only vaguely obtainable. To join it meant you were signing up to the possibility of being beaten by police, thrown in jail, declared a danger to society. And a lot of the establishment did everything to support that dynamic. People accepted that there would be short term hardship and a genuine danger to their livelihood, but did it anyway until the dialogue changed. Protesters don't have that fear anymore, because they are mostly white middle-class people who sign online petitions, protest every now and again(not beyond the point of comfort) and are more concerned with how their activism looks on Facebook than what results it achieves. It doesn't work, because authorities know that any flavour-of-the-month cause will eventually dissipate in the face of affluence and apathy. BLM is genuinely different, because it's fuelled by genuine anger, and they are escalating it necessarily. It looks and acts like a real protest.

Mainstream Republicans don't want Trump, they never did. But liberals are doing their trademark thing of putting right wingers and Republicans in the same box and sticking a label on it instead of trying to understand the complexity and divisions that exist on their side. Every Brexit voter is a racist. Everyone who voted in Cameron hates the poor. It's making political discourse more and more polarised and it plays into the hands of a political system like the US.

The Republicans may well eventually control house and senate, but a large contingent of them will not be relishing a Trump presidency. Even If they think Trump could be a vehicle to shoehorn in traditional conservative policies, they will be proven very wrong. The man is nuts, and exists outside of their rules, good luck keeping a leash on him. He won't be the first buffoon to hold a position of power in the Western world (Tony Abbott, Rob Ford) and he won't be the last. This idea that he's going to launch nukes the minute he gets into office is patently nonsense. In fact, he's the only candidate in the course of the Republican primaries who espoused a non-interventionist policy.

I stress, I don't think it's going to change America into a hand-holding utopia. In fact, in the short term, I accept it might well do the opposite. But the two parties who control the whole system will eventually have to start recognising that people aren't going to stand for the likes of Hillary Clinton anymore, and that populist candidates like Paul, Sanders and Trump aren't going away. Otherwise, they'll keep moving the goalposts during their primaries and make sure their candidate is the one that serves their interests, people be damned. This is only a shot in the arm for their electoral system, nothing more.

 

[Prevenger17]

It's the Wild West out here lads, and Raleigh and Legs are fine slingers.

 

[Ruairi77]

All well and good to equate a Trump presidency with a shot in the arm but you don't have to live here. (edit: my bad, miss read your post, my point still stands tho)
The success of Sanders in the primaries, based on the foundations of the occupy movement, shows that grass roots is the only way to change the system. He will have a lot of power in the Senate now. Look at Warren taking down Wells Fargo, change is happening, slowly but surely. Getting impatient and electing Trump to speed up that change would be absolute madness.