They Don't Get It Do They?

[degsy]

Not just today. We've rode our luck mostly from winning against lesser sides at home. The fact is the players aren't good and Moshiri needs to spend big and spend very well in the summer IF the intention is to get Everton into the top four.

A big spend won't happen without a big sell...I'm not even sure that -
a) You're allowed to, what with FFP
b) Moshiri isn't that 'rich'
c) He's not a 'vanity' Boss, it's business, yes you have to spend 'some'. His medium to long term plan is the stadium... Spunking £200+M will interfere with his core business - The Stadium.

 

[TraffordBlue]

I think fans of clubs outside the top 6 delude themselves when their players have good seasons and assume that they could get in the very best sides in the league when it just isn't true. Years ago a good example would be Baines being claimed as better than Ashley Cole when he was no where near Cole. Similarly our fans would make claims that Jagielka and Lescott were the best centre backs in the league when Terry and Ferdinand were still around. Of course players can have excellent seasons and be in amongst the best players in the league as a one off (Jagielka in 08-09 for example), but the top players manage to do it consistently for 5,6,7 seasons or more. An obvious example of a top player playing outside the favoured media clubs and being in that top level category is Kante. He was instrumental in winning the league for Leicester and has done the same this season for Chelsea now he's got his move.

I think the only genuinely top player we have is Lukaku but he is lacking a key characteristic at the moment which has prevented himself from getting the big move he desperately craves. His attitude and hunger in crunch games is not right and the top clubs will have seen that. Fortunately for him, he has the goal scoring prowess to compensate for that outside of the big games, and when playing with other top 4 players, he won't be expected to win games on his own and I think he will shine.

There is little excuse for such a poor record in these games though. No Evertonian is expecting us to win at the big grounds every other season but we expect to at least be able to cause an 'upset' say once every 4 or 5 years and we just can't seem to do it. Despite much poorer placed teams in the league than us being able to.

For me, Baines and Jagielka epitomise this 'best of the rest era' and I think our fans are possibly too harsh on them as they are simply not truly top players and that shows in these games. They try their best but it just isn't good enough and for me, it's time we put those players behind us and move in to a different era.

We would love a complete overhaul but being realistic, I think the following current players have a future here and adding top players to play alongside them could push us for a top 4 place:

Gueye, Schneiderlin, Davies and Barkley. Obviously i'd include Lukaku in that but he will go in the summer.

The jury is still out with these being young or not having been here long enough to be written off:

Holgate, Calvert-Lewin, Lookman, Bolasie.

The rest of the squad for me is simply not good enough to move us forward to challenge the 'Big 6' for those 4 Champions League places.

 

[Lanolin]

How many neutral fans do you think looked an Everton team with Pennington, holgate and Calvert Lewin in the starting line up and thought 'these lot are going to smash Liverpool all over the gaff'? I would say none.

We lost to a better side today, the injuries showed just how light we are on quality in the squad. We might have a mental block in this fixture at times, but today's not a great example to prove the rule.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

I think fans of clubs outside the top 6 delude themselves when their players have good seasons and assume that they could get in the very best sides in the league when it just isn't true. Years ago a good example would be Baines being claimed as better than Ashley Cole when he was no where near Cole. Similarly our fans would make claims that Jagielka and Lescott were the best centre backs in the league when Terry and Ferdinand were still around. Of course players can have excellent seasons and be in amongst the best players in the league as a one off (Jagielka in 08-09 for example), but the top players manage to do it consistently for 5,6,7 seasons or more. An obvious example of a top player playing outside the favoured media clubs and being in that top level category is Kante. He was instrumental in winning the league for Leicester and has done the same this season for Chelsea now he's got his move.

I think the only genuinely top player we have is Lukaku but he is lacking a key characteristic at the moment which has prevented himself from getting the big move he desperately craves. His attitude and hunger in crunch games is not right and the top clubs will have seen that. Fortunately for him, he has the goal scoring prowess to compensate for that outside of the big games, and when playing with other top 4 players, he won't be expected to win games on his own and I think he will shine.

There is little excuse for such a poor record in these games though. No Evertonian is expecting us to win at the big grounds every other season but we expect to at least be able to cause an 'upset' say once every 4 or 5 years and we just can't seem to do it. Despite much poorer placed teams in the league than us being able to.

For me, Baines and Jagielka epitomise this 'best of the rest era' and I think our fans are possibly too harsh on them as they are simply not truly top players and that shows in these games. They try their best but it just isn't good enough and for me, it's time we put those players behind us and move in to a different era.

We would love a complete overhaul but being realistic, I think the following current players have a future here and adding top players to play alongside them could push us for a top 4 place:

Gueye, Schneiderlin, Davies and Barkley. Obviously i'd include Lukaku in that but he will go in the summer.

The jury is still out with these being young or not having been here long enough to be written off:

Holgate, Calvert-Lewin, Lookman, Bolasie.

The rest of the squad for me is simply not good enough to move us forward to challenge the 'Big 6' for those 4 Champions League places.

Concur with the sentiment of your post, but you then became guilty of the very thing you accuse fans of doing. Davies is completely unproven...personally I've seen nothing from the lad to suggest he will be anything more than squad filler. Barkley will never be a quality player as he lacks a football brain and every manager has spoken of their struggle to coach him. Hes 23, not a raw 17 year old yet he still plays like a kid in the playground..wreckless too. Gueye is most definitely unproven. The only one that does stand out is Schneiderlin. The Lukaku one is interesting in that I'm not sure he would fit into a Chelsea. They demand a lot more than someone who relies so heavily on service and doesn't do enough outside of goalscoring. Lukaku doesn't compliment the other forwards, so while he may get 25-30 goals a season overall the attack may end up with less goals than if there was a forward who scored less but complimented the others more. Belgium suffered the other night with Lukaku upfront inspite of the fact it was him who got an equaliser. Their attacking play was ponderous as he offered no movement. A better all round forward would have created more opportunities both for himself and his teammates. Lukaku goes very quiet for long spells such is his reliance on service and inability to create something for himself...he's a very ordinary outfield forward.

How many neutral fans do you think looked an Everton team with Pennington, holgate and Calvert Lewin in the starting line up and thought 'these lot are going to smash Liverpool all over the gaff'? I would say none.

We lost to a better side today, the injuries showed just how light we are on quality in the squad. We might have a mental block in this fixture at times, but today's not a great example to prove the rule.

And Davies, and Gueye, and Barkley. We lack serious quality. It's fine going on runs against lower table clubs, but as soon as we meet a quality side, like Spurs, like yesterday, we hit a wall. Our best two chances came from set pieces (the goal, and the free kick into Williiams)...general play there was nothing. They on the otherhand looked capable of cutting us open at will.

How many of our players would get in their front six?

Mane, Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Wijanldum, Henderson. I'd say one...Schneiderlin for Wijanldum. Lukaku moves like he's stuck in quicksand so not a chance would he get near that forward line...he cant press, he'd also slow down every swift move or lose possession as the ball whacks off his shin. A more prolific goals per minute forward (Sturridge) can't get in their team as he doesn't compliment the others. This is why I'm totally unsure of Lukaku in terms of his overall value...great individual goalscorer yes, but I'm not convinced he could develop into a much better player and be capable of doing what Costa does at Chelsea.

 

[rbm]

I think fans of clubs outside the top 6 delude themselves when their players have good seasons and assume that they could get in the very best sides in the league when it just isn't true. Years ago a good example would be Baines being claimed as better than Ashley Cole when he was no where near Cole. Similarly our fans would make claims that Jagielka and Lescott were the best centre backs in the league when Terry and Ferdinand were still around. Of course players can have excellent seasons and be in amongst the best players in the league as a one off (Jagielka in 08-09 for example), but the top players manage to do it consistently for 5,6,7 seasons or more. An obvious example of a top player playing outside the favoured media clubs and being in that top level category is Kante. He was instrumental in winning the league for Leicester and has done the same this season for Chelsea now he's got his move.

I think the only genuinely top player we have is Lukaku but he is lacking a key characteristic at the moment which has prevented himself from getting the big move he desperately craves. His attitude and hunger in crunch games is not right and the top clubs will have seen that. Fortunately for him, he has the goal scoring prowess to compensate for that outside of the big games, and when playing with other top 4 players, he won't be expected to win games on his own and I think he will shine.

There is little excuse for such a poor record in these games though. No Evertonian is expecting us to win at the big grounds every other season but we expect to at least be able to cause an 'upset' say once every 4 or 5 years and we just can't seem to do it. Despite much poorer placed teams in the league than us being able to.

For me, Baines and Jagielka epitomise this 'best of the rest era' and I think our fans are possibly too harsh on them as they are simply not truly top players and that shows in these games. They try their best but it just isn't good enough and for me, it's time we put those players behind us and move in to a different era.

We would love a complete overhaul but being realistic, I think the following current players have a future here and adding top players to play alongside them could push us for a top 4 place:

Gueye, Schneiderlin, Davies and Barkley. Obviously i'd include Lukaku in that but he will go in the summer.

The jury is still out with these being young or not having been here long enough to be written off:

Holgate, Calvert-Lewin, Lookman, Bolasie.

The rest of the squad for me is simply not good enough to move us forward to challenge the 'Big 6' for those 4 Champions League places.

Excellent post mate and I agree with every word.

Just building on what you say the reality is we have to accept that Liverpool who whether we like it or not are among the tiny elite of truly huge global brand name clubs, are a far bigger club than we are. This has been true since the 1970s and it is almost impossible to imagine it ever changing.

we are the second team in a city dominated by a superpower who regard Manchester United not us as their true rival. Again this has been true for decades with the derby really being a blue occasion as we work ourselves up for our bi-annual cup final.

Instead of torturing ourselves hoping for equity we should relax about these games and just enjoy it if and when we manage the occasional breakout.

 

[OldDominionBlue]

It is not just us. A number of teams on the come still lay down and die when facing teams like the RS and ManUre, who are still living on past glory.

It is a syndrome we need to be rid of. ManUre should be in 10th+ place without dodgy refereeing and some teams still rolling over. Frankly, we have the talent to make them out bee-atches. (Can I say the word for female dogs and not be punished?)

 

[davek]

Succinctly put by one of our own.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

How many neutral fans do you think looked an Everton team with Pennington, holgate and Calvert Lewin in the starting line up and thought 'these lot are going to smash Liverpool all over the gaff'? I would say none.

We lost to a better side today, the injuries showed just how light we are on quality in the squad. We might have a mental block in this fixture at times, but today's not a great example to prove the rule.

This is true. Too many people are complaining that we couldn't raise our game yesterday as other 'lesser ' teams have instead of bemoaning that we have to raise our game to even get a result.

 

[Muggins]

his performance today reiterated to me why no top european club would want him. clueless.

top forwards drag the rest of the team into the game. ive seen costa do it on numerous occaisions this season, zlatan has carried united thro much of this season, making the team tick and not allowing the team to rest on their laurels.

he didnt seem interested. if you want to be a top chamions league strike then 'dis-interest' isnt what any team are looking for.

I think he is a fantastic player mate don't get me wrong but I agree with you. To be talking and acting like he is at the moment he needs to be on levels with Messi and co.

Bottom line is, Niasse scored against Liverpool this season and he hasn't.

We always bottle it against them over there, but yesterday I wanted to see just whether he's as big a deal as he thinks he is and can score a couple and break that curse. Clearly the rest of the players fault he didn't notch a brace.

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

Carragher said that when Gerrard was captain of the RS, during the week before a derby match he would have a word with every single Liverpool player who was from outside Merseyside, just to let them know how important the match was.

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

Win %.

Royle: 40%
Catterick: 32%
Kendall: 26%
Harvey: 20%
Lee: 17%
Moyes: 16%
Britton: 14%
Smith: 12.5%
Bingham: 0%
Martinez: 0%

Loss %

Harvey: 60%
Britton: 57%
Moyes: 52%
Smith: 50%
Kendall: 45%
Bingham: 43%
Catterick: 40%
Lee: 33%
Martinez: 33%
Royle: 0%

Answer - 11 years of David "knife to a gun fight" Moyes.

That's a shocking record, to say the least. I didn't know that Moyes had actually lost most of the Merseyside Derby matches he'd been involved with.

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

How many neutral fans do you think looked an Everton team with Pennington, holgate and Calvert Lewin in the starting line up and thought 'these lot are going to smash Liverpool all over the gaff'? I would say none.[//QUOTE]

Good point. The club with the bigger spending power and the better squad won the match.

Simple as that.

 

[Khalekan]

How many neutral fans do you think looked an Everton team with Pennington, holgate and Calvert Lewin in the starting line up and thought 'these lot are going to smash Liverpool all over the gaff'? I would say none.

We lost to a better side today, the injuries showed just how light we are on quality in the squad. We might have a mental block in this fixture at times, but today's not a great example to prove the rule.

I would say precious few Everton fans thought that as well

And we are about to reprise it on Tuesday night at another big ground.

 

[Steve0]

Too much hysteria over the result.

We were missing our best defender who's also one of our best attackers, our second best forward, our best midfielder, the first choice back up for the defender, the first choice back up for our best midfielder and our second choice back up for our best midfielder.

And despite all that we still only lost cos our dopey goalie decided to put in one if the worst goal keeping performances in Evertons history.

Evertonians don't really mention injury lists as a whole but it can't go without mention here tbh.

We're really not far behind them and if we buy a few more Schneiderlin class players and they service their debt and fsgs dividends by selling counting I and/or mane then we could easily overtake them.

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

we are the second team in a city dominated by a superpower who regard Manchester United not us as their true rival. Again this has been true for decades with the derby really being a blue occasion as we work ourselves up for our bi-annual cup final.

Sadly, you're spot on.