Current Affairs The Labour Party

Status
Not open for further replies.
....good question. Given the state of the Country’s public services and this Conservative Party, if Labour end up with less seats than they currently have, it’ll be a disastrous election for them. For it to be a success, they’ll have to eat into a chunk of the Conservative’s already slight majority.

Fair enough. Would you not have a target in terms of vote share?

I ask that, because as a Labour leader you can only really control how well your own party poll. If others poll better (in part because of an electoral deal between two right wing rivals) it can look different.

I think he will go after this election either way, but personallyI feel if he gets over 35% of the vote, that has been a pretty good performance.
 
I don't think Corbyn is an anti-semite.

However, I do think that his loathing of Israel is so extreme that it makes him unable to take a backward step and admit any fault - and he is at fault because he has enabled anti-semitism to thrive because he hasn't distinguished well enough a distaste for Israel with a hatred of Jews in general.

He was asked to apologise. He should have apologised. He didn't. Because that's who he is - an ideological extremist who won't take a backward step. It's why he incomprehensible challenged the IHRA definition of anti-semitism and it's why Neil decimated him in that interview.

He scores spectacular own goals over and over again, and it's why he's not electable. Five years of Boris Johnson is going to be painful, but at least the end of Corbyn is a decent consolation prize in two weeks.

Or he was providing an answer to the question, which may or may not have contained an apology, but Andrew Neil refused to let him finish?

If we run with this line of argument though, what would you say was extreme about his view on Israel? His view appears to be the need for a 2 state solution, with each side respected the rule of international law. Am I missing something or is there anything extreme in that? Also I am lost to see how you could read the above and believe anti-semitism was acceptable (especially with his prolonged record of voting in supporting multiple causes associated to the wellbeing of Jewish people). If you were an anti-semite, I would say you were a complete idiot for reading into the above that you're welcome.

Secondly what does "allowed anti-semitism to thrive" mean in this context? Less than 0.1% of Labour members have been found to be anti-semitic. By the party structures this has gone down substantially since he took office. It's also been seen that Labour voters are less anti-semitic than all of the other major parties, and a sample of the general public.Can this be described as "thriving"?

As for the IHRA assessment, his mistake was ever accepting that anti-zionism equates to anti-semitism. That was his biggest mistake, accepting that. He naively felt, if he went against his instincts and went along with a completely bizarre definition, people would be sensible and decent enough to drop a truly bizarre attack upon Britains leading anti-racist politician. However he is incredibly naive and doesn't understand the lengths to which people are willing to go to take down his project and what it represents. I do not mean Jewish people here either, this is being led by gentiles in positions of authority.

The assessment itself states criticism of Israel is automatically anti-semitic. That's illogical. Just because you criticise a country, doesn't automatically mean you dislike the people who live within it, never mind hold a racist view towards them. I have a structural disagreement with religious states, be they Jewish (Israel), Christian (Northern Ireland), Islamic (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran), Hindu (sections of the Indian right), Buddhist etc etc. Making the automatic assumption this is down to racism is a really stupid position, and any qualified person/journalist ought to do better.

It reminds me very much of the new trans women are women nonsense. Ordinary people don't believe it. There will become a tipping point, where people just get hacked off and ignore the ridiculous labels that they are prejudicial for holding different ideological perspectives.

As for the final bit, lets wait and see. I'll be kind but I've heard all this before. I heard it last time with May allegedly being the greatest PM since Thatcher and indefinite Tory rule. They ended up begging for an election 2 years later. Johnson's government will not last 5 years. I have severe doubts he'll even win a workable majority.

Corbyn is far from faultless on a whole host of questions. However I have never really had any of the above questions answered to me. If someone did I would be happy to revise my view. However I still struggle to see, how concern about how religious states treat other religious groups, women, homosexuals etc automatically means you are racist? I'm open to persuasion though.
 
Or he was providing an answer to the question, which may or may not have contained an apology, but Andrew Neil refused to let him finish?

If we run with this line of argument though, what would you say was extreme about his view on Israel? His view appears to be the need for a 2 state solution, with each side respected the rule of international law. Am I missing something or is there anything extreme in that? Also I am lost to see how you could read the above and believe anti-semitism was acceptable (especially with his prolonged record of voting in supporting multiple causes associated to the wellbeing of Jewish people). If you were an anti-semite, I would say you were a complete idiot for reading into the above that you're welcome.

Secondly what does "allowed anti-semitism to thrive" mean in this context? Less than 0.1% of Labour members have been found to be anti-semitic. By the party structures this has gone down substantially since he took office. It's also been seen that Labour voters are less anti-semitic than all of the other major parties, and a sample of the general public.Can this be described as "thriving"?

As for the IHRA assessment, his mistake was ever accepting that anti-zionism equates to anti-semitism. That was his biggest mistake, accepting that. He naively felt, if he went against his instincts and went along with a completely bizarre definition, people would be sensible and decent enough to drop a truly bizarre attack upon Britains leading anti-racist politician. However he is incredibly naive and doesn't understand the lengths to which people are willing to go to take down his project and what it represents. I do not mean Jewish people here either, this is being led by gentiles in positions of authority.

The assessment itself states criticism of Israel is automatically anti-semitic. That's illogical. Just because you criticise a country, doesn't automatically mean you dislike the people who live within it, never mind hold a racist view towards them. I have a structural disagreement with religious states, be they Jewish (Israel), Christian (Northern Ireland), Islamic (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran), Hindu (sections of the Indian right), Buddhist etc etc. Making the automatic assumption this is down to racism is a really stupid position, and any qualified person/journalist ought to do better.

It reminds me very much of the new trans women are women nonsense. Ordinary people don't believe it. There will become a tipping point, where people just get hacked off and ignore the ridiculous labels that they are prejudicial for holding different ideological perspectives.

As for the final bit, lets wait and see. I'll be kind but I've heard all this before. I heard it last time with May allegedly being the greatest PM since Thatcher and indefinite Tory rule. They ended up begging for an election 2 years later. Johnson's government will not last 5 years. I have severe doubts he'll even win a workable majority.

Corbyn is far from faultless on a whole host of questions. However I have never really had any of the above questions answered to me. If someone did I would be happy to revise my view. However I still struggle to see, how concern about how religious states treat other religious groups, women, homosexuals etc automatically means you are racist? I'm open to persuasion though.

I don’t believe Corbyn is racist. I believe he is stupid. His manifesto promises to apologise to a number of people because of the British Empire, something which disappeared before most people on here were even born. He is more than happy to do the UK down with his apologies, yet given an open goal to apologise for his and the Labour Parties anti semitism chose to dribble the ball towards the corner flag....
 
How is that valid? I pay for the pension of retirees via my taxes today. When I myself receive a state pension is irrelevant to that. His argument was that people had been paying into their personal state pension pot for years and now wouldn't be able to get their annuity until a few years later. It's fundamentally misrepresenting how the state pension works.
It's about reciprocity and trust is it not?

They have paid for the pensions of others and had an expectation as to when they would be entitled to receive theirs.
 
It appears to me that the current mainstream news are cynically pushing the Anti-semitism agenda in order to either sell controversy or to discredit Corbyn (and through him Labour) to support the inherent political stances of the media owners.

Corbyn is against the political state of Israel and its stance on Palestine - that does not automatically make him against the Jewish people and it only takes a little bit of critical thinking to see that criticising Israel and its actions does not equal bigotry against the Jewish faith.

Look at the wider picture - on the day when talks between the government and the US regarding a trade deal in a post no deal Brexit were revealed to the public the headlines focus on Corbyn's non-apologies over anti semitism.

Why is that? Why are politicians allowed to openly criticise the politics in the US for example, but not the politics of Israel?

You shouldn't wait and see which side your political party supports before deciding whether or not to call out hypocrisy.
 
Like I said, that logic would prevent the state retirement age ever changing, which is unsustainable.
I had understood the argument not to be about a change to retirement age changing, indeed I think that is an expectation of most people, but rather about the notice and preparation time that these women have been given in respect of the change in legislation.
 
I don’t believe Corbyn is racist. I believe he is stupid. His manifesto promises to apologise to a number of people because of the British Empire, something which disappeared before most people on here were even born. He is more than happy to do the UK down with his apologies, yet given an open goal to apologise for his and the Labour Parties anti semitism chose to dribble the ball towards the corner flag....

Well there are 2 issues here Pete. The first is to substantiate the calls of anti-semitism. You have seen what I put in the post, namely that I do not believe in religious states of any persuasion. I think they bring with them division, bigotry and difficulties wherever they have been tried. Do you believe I should have to apologise for that view? Is this the view that is now held as being racist? Come on, even you can concede that this is complete madness?

As for the 2nd point, yes lots of what the British Empire did was a long time ago. I am not sure if there has been any apology yet? There are also people who as of this day are campaigning for justice because of the crimes of the British empire. I must sayI am deeply uneasy with dragging squaddies through the courts, while the politicians who sent them to places get off scot free.

Would you say, for example, that the none aligned, none political grandmother of someone who was in a republican group should be smashed over the face with a rifle, and if she was we would owe her an apology? Or a young boy (under 16) who rang in an IRA compartment of weapons, was instructed to go and wait at the site for the RUC to arrive and was shot dead by the SAS on his way that his family are due an apology?

Maybe I am wrong, but the more I see of our news agenda, the more I think we are living in an Orwellian nightmare, where peace is war.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. If people believe me to be racist I am happy to here why, as it's the last thing I'd want to be. However I just can't square the position that opposition to religious states are the same thing as racism.
 
It appears to me that the current mainstream news are cynically pushing the Anti-semitism agenda in order to either sell controversy or to discredit Corbyn (and through him Labour) to support the inherent political stances of the media owners.

Corbyn is against the political state of Israel and its stance on Palestine - that does not automatically make him against the Jewish people and it only takes a little bit of critical thinking to see that criticising Israel and its actions does not equal bigotry against the Jewish faith.

Look at the wider picture - on the day when talks between the government and the US regarding a trade deal in a post no deal Brexit were revealed to the public the headlines focus on Corbyn's non-apologies over anti semitism.

Why is that? Why are politicians allowed to openly criticise the politics in the US for example, but not the politics of Israel?

You shouldn't wait and see which side your political party supports before deciding whether or not to call out hypocrisy.

...the press continually look to trip up politicians on any subject. Once they find something, they are like a dog with a bone. It’s sad really when we have 300,000 children living in poverty that they aren’t more accountable on issues that matter more.

it’s Labour’s fault for not dealing with this issue effectively when it first raised its ugly head. It confirms my view that the Party lacks a political strategy, it needs people at the top with big brains.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top