Current Affairs The Labour Party

[zzr45]

It was a particular jewish group that objected, as stated, but at least you've started discussing the reasons why, although you're still boring the feck out of me with this semantic-obfuscation.

Eh. I look at the Tommy Robinson thread and see the flak one poster rightly got for his views. It just seems odd that one person keeps making comparative statements about ‘Jews’ and it seems to be getting swept quietly under the carpet.

 

[dwightschrute]

Without a doubt mate. He is completely ill suited to leading. I remember around 10 years ago speaking to John Mcdonnell, who joked to me that he had stood in the 2008 election as he drew the short straw. Between the lines though, the view was the "left" needed to put up a candidate and Mcdonnell was seen as the most credible, then Abbott. I don't think they even envisaged a world where Corbyn would be asked to run.

The thing is though, Mcdonnell in particular understands centralism and debate. The culture of how you conduct debate and essentially how politics works.

The structural problem Labour now have, is it's quite acute that the members and the PLP don't like one another. There are not MP's to allow for the members to be fairly represented. The PLP will not stand against Corbyn as they will lose. Tactically they have played things really badly (and continue too).

McDonnell is great, probably the most future planning MP for the left with his commissioned reports on alternate models of ownership and the land ownership report with George Monbiot. Think he's just commissioned one with economist Robert Skidelsky to look at the four day week as well. Saw him talking at TWT last year talking about the Lucas Plan, he knows his stuff and a lot more politically savvy than Corbyn.

 

[orchard]

Eh. I look at the Tommy Robinson thread and see the flak one poster rightly got for his views. It just seems odd that one person keeps making comparative statements about ‘Jews’ and it seems to be getting swept quietly under the carpet.

You had a go at me for saying jewish group, when it was a jewish group mate. Surely you would both be better discussing the objections to some of the signatories rather than attempting to infer someone hates jews from their use of language.

 

[Groucho]

Eh. I look at the Tommy Robinson thread and see the flak one poster rightly got for his views. It just seems odd that one person keeps making comparative statements about ‘Jews’ and it seems to be getting swept quietly under the carpet.

I beg your pardon?

We’re not sweeping anything under the carpet thank you.

Not really, for me the use of the term ‘Jewish people’ infers that this is the typical ‘sneaky Jew’ trope that’s being thrown in.

You are now putting words in people’s mouths.

What would you like to see written in place of Jewish people?

In addition everyone, it goes without saying that we will not tolerate any racist view here, so please report any instances you see.

 

[catcherintherye]

McDonnell is great, probably the most future planning MP for the left with his commissioned reports on alternate models of ownership and the land ownership report with George Monbiot. Think he's just commissioned one with economist Robert Skidelsky to look at the four day week as well. Saw him talking at TWT last year talking about the Lucas Plan, he knows his stuff and a lot more politically savvy than Corbyn.

Mcdonnell is far more professional. Very early on into the role he made it his objective to secure a team of the best minds possible available to him. He got 6-8 leading economics professors to advise him. Labour defeated the Conservatives on the question of the economy at the last election, for perhaps the first time in over a decade, and maybe the 2nd time in 40 years. That was offering a radical alternative too. It was the basis and foundations for their success too, and remains so.

Since then the Tories have changed tact in quite an ineffective way and are dancing to his tune. Hammond insisting on further austerity looks increasingly like a relic and you have them all promising more money to schools, the police, students or the NHS all over the place.

His manifesto was very good. It was costed. It was a sharp plan, namely make something water tight that the opposition cannot critique. It's his strong area really and he deserves a lot of credit.

 

[zzr45]

You had a go at me for saying jewish group, when it was a jewish group mate. Surely you would both be better discussing the objections to some of the signatories rather than attempting to infer someone hates jews from their use of language.

Wasn’t having a go at you mate, more the persons whose recent posts on here seems to revolve around commenting on what Jewish groups are doing. As you say, the objections here are the crux of it, with several non-denominational groups also piping up.

I beg your pardon?

We’re not sweeping anything under the carpet thank you.


You are now putting words in people’s mouths.

What would you like to see written in place of Jewish people?

In addition everyone, it goes without saying that we will not tolerate any racist view here, so please report any instances you see.

Oh Groucho, there’s none so blind that won’t see. As I’ve said above, I find it very suspect that one poster keeps jumping up and shouting about what Jewish groups are doing. If you don’t have a problem with that, fine, but it’s a reflection on you and not me.

 

[Groucho]

Wasn’t having a go at you mate, more the persons whose recent posts on here seems to revolve around commenting on what Jewish groups are doing. As you say, the objections here are the crux of it, with several non-denominational groups also piping up.


Oh Groucho, there’s none so blind that won’t see. As I’ve said above, I find it very suspect that one poster keeps jumping up and shouting about what Jewish groups are doing. If you don’t have a problem with that, fine, but it’s a reflection on you and not me.

Don’t have a problem with what? If you’re inferring we condone anti semitism you’re very wrong.

Don’t be so facetious, and use the report function

 

[catcherintherye]

Corbyn is anti EU. Always has been. But now he’s being told that they way to win is be a remainer. It couldn’t be more wrong. He is screwed whenever we have an election......

Yes he is. The reality is, the left critique of the EU has greatly reduced over time, for a number of different reasons really. Partly because the left has declined in influence and support over time, partly because New Labour in moving to the centre adopted the EU very centrally to within their programme. A new left is growing, but it looks quite different to the older more true union orientated left who were quite suited to a sort of one nation protectionism that dominated much of the anti-EU left agenda.

You could probably summarise the right as people who talk about Europe too much, but the left just haven't really spoken about Europe at all. I have friends who have no idea why Corbyn would even oppose the EU. That view Brexit as a sliding scale of right wing views, or at worst fascism. It's dangerous, but it's the dominant idea.

As for screwed at the election, I'll be frank I am not sure I can go along with such a conclusion, not because it is wrong but because the situation is so fluid currently that it's very hard to predict. Logically both the Conservatives and Labour ought to be dead.

Corbyn should have been finished in 2017 though. Massive attacks in all papers. Leadership challenge. 150 MP's against him. Radically different to the existing status quo. Personally hugely unpopular in terms of ratings. Managing a party in severe decline (who's European partners were going the same way). No experience of any kind of front line experience. A hugely inexperienced shadow cabinet. Just about everything you would not want in an election. Not only did he achieve Labour 2nd best performance in England/Wales in 50 odd years, he saw the biggest increase in votes in it's post war history. He also did this, largely in the 6 weeks of campaigning (as he lagged way behind).

I can provide no answer for that. All I would say, is that the guy is sort of a political teflon, that even when he looks completely done he seems to rally. I would be very cautious in writing him off, and suspect he thrives in such circumstances.

If I was advising him (which I'm not) you would say the key things he has to do, is get the question away from Brexit. The Liberal Democrats are doing him a massive favour if they insist on only propping up a Conservative coalition not a Labour one. So too would the Tories be in electing Johnson (who is unpopular amongst wavering Labour voters- he will likely push them back to Labour). I feared Gove and Stewart (for different reasons) in this contest, but Johnson/Hunt don't really worry me. Hunt comes across as a bit of a weirdo. Then again, I thought May would be strong, so sometimes all I know is what I don't know!

 

[orchard]

Wasn’t having a go at you mate, more the persons whose recent posts on here seems to revolve around commenting on what Jewish groups are doing. As you say, the objections here are the crux of it, with several non-denominational groups also piping up.


Oh Groucho, there’s none so blind that won’t see. As I’ve said above, I find it very suspect that one poster keeps jumping up and shouting about what Jewish groups are doing. If you don’t have a problem with that, fine, but it’s a reflection on you and not me.

Edl, bnp, labour, bxp, Tories, erg, and lots of other groups get criticised and discussed on here, why shouldn't other groups be discussed?

 

[catcherintherye]

Wasn’t having a go at you mate, more the persons whose recent posts on here seems to revolve around commenting on what Jewish groups are doing. As you say, the objections here are the crux of it, with several non-denominational groups also piping up.


Oh Groucho, there’s none so blind that won’t see. As I’ve said above, I find it very suspect that one poster keeps jumping up and shouting about what Jewish groups are doing. If you don’t have a problem with that, fine, but it’s a reflection on you and not me.

It should have been phrased The Jewish signatories of the letter, which in fairness I would imagine is what the poster meant. It is a fair point in all of this. There's something quite unhinged I find about people who aren't Jewish, attacking some people who are Jewish for having an opinion on anti-semitism. It probably goes both ways, but the idea that the Jewish community is a monolithic block that all support the state of Israel is just not true.

 

[zzr45]

Edl, bnp, labour, bxp, Tories, erg, and lots of other groups get criticised and discussed on here, why shouldn't other groups be discussed?

@catcherintherye has put it eloquently above.

 

[orchard]

@catcherintherye has put it eloquently above.

Yea, but rather dramatically, using the term 'attack' is rather emotive for a start, and it's ridiculous to state that allegations and counter-allegations that are made against one of the largest political bodies in the country can't be objectively discussed and examined, but rather, must remain in the domain of a niche religous body.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Are we all hugging yet?

 

[orchard]

Are we all hugging yet?

Yea, wait for Groucho to do the hard work...

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yea, wait for Groucho to do the hard work...

He's the hero we need...