Current Affairs The Labour Party

[orchard]

Seems Labour are going to jump into bed with the Tories on Brexit, thus delivering the rupture from the EU that Corbyn has always wanted.

Source?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Source?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48099901?__twitter_impression=true

Call it a hunch. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they weren't waiting to get the local and European elections out of the way and then sell the 48% down the river.

 

[abelard]

Followed by spells in industry for all academics and civil servants ;-)

Ha! Working in industry is what drove me to the dark side in the first place.

Tech makes even universities seem efficient and sane.

But perhaps I'm wrong, and conjuring up $15 trillion in invented quantitative easing money, to throw at children like Elon Musk or to subsidise Uber's $billion-plus quarterly losses (rather than, say, addressing antibiotic resistance or preventing the entire planet from boiling up), is a perfectly efficient allocation of resources, because The "Free" "Market".

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Ha! Working in industry is what drove me to the dark side in the first place.

Tech makes even universities seem efficient and sane.

But perhaps I'm wrong, and conjuring up $15 trillion in invented quantitative easing money, to throw at children like Elon Musk or to subsidise Uber's $billion-plus quarterly losses (rather than, say, addressing antibiotic resistance or preventing the entire planet from boiling up), is a perfectly efficient allocation of resources, because The "Free" "Market".

I suppose that's what I struggle with, in that you're saying the government screwed up, so what we need is even more government. It's one of the absurdities of the privatisation debate, as people oppose the French or German governments running British trains but think the British government will do a sterling job of it. Just because Jezzer had a train set when he was a kid or something. There's a whole army of far controllers sat on the dole waiting to ride in and save us from the mean Europeans who haven't run the trains on time since Mussolini, coz the idea that it would be the same people running the trains and the only change would be Jezzer sat on the floor barking orders is clearly rather silly.

 

[orchard]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48099901?__twitter_impression=true

Call it a hunch. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they weren't waiting to get the local and European elections out of the way and then sell the 48% down the river.

Well, i'm sure that there are plenty of ob stacles even if they did agree to something with May, who'll try to squirm out of her pact with the Devil when the time comes.

As for proverbial rivers, i sort of see it somewhat differently, with what the Tories have been trying to achieve on the back of the vote as selling a large percentage down the river (>48pc), but if Labour can safeguard environmental/worker/consumer standards and avoid the wet-dream of a race to the bottom becoming a US dumping ground, then a lot less will be sold down the proverbial.

Anyway, no way is anything constructive coming from talks with May imo.

 

[abelard]

I suppose that's what I struggle with, in that you're saying the government screwed up, so what we need is even more government. It's one of the absurdities of the privatisation debate, as people oppose the French or German governments running British trains but think the British government will do a sterling job of it. Just because Jezzer had a train set when he was a kid or something. There's a whole army of far controllers sat on the dole waiting to ride in and save us from the mean Europeans who haven't run the trains on time since Mussolini, coz the idea that it would be the same people running the trains and the only change would be Jezzer sat on the floor barking orders is clearly rather silly.

The concept of government didn't screw up, the Tories and Lib Dems screwed up, by destroying local government. You are being willfully ignorant here.

We don't need less or more government, we just need fewer Tories running it.

Likewise, we don't need 'different' people running the trains, we just need to get rid of the system whereby corporations bid more money than they can actually afford in exchange for temporary monopolies, wherein their only ability to increase profit after paying an enormous lump sum up front is by cutting the quality of service in every imaginable way.

Do you even know how the rail system in Britain works? I mean.... go on and try to justify what's happened, repeatedly, to the LNER. I dare you.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The concept of government didn't screw up, the Tories and Lib Dems screwed up, by destroying local government. You are being willfully ignorant here.

We don't need less or more government, we just need fewer Tories running it.

Likewise, we don't need 'different' people running the trains, we just need to get rid of the system whereby corporations bid more money than they can actually afford in exchange for temporary monopolies, wherein their only ability to increase profit after paying an enormous lump sum up front is by cutting the quality of service in every imaginable way.

Do you even know how the rail system in Britain works? I mean.... go on and try to justify what's happened, repeatedly, to the LNER. I dare you.

The Tories and Lib Dems are government. They may not be the government you would like, but they are government nonetheless. Even with your train comments, you're complaining about a tendering system set up by the government. I vaguely recall something in the Labour manifesto talking about the purchasing power of government and how Labour will use that as a force for good, which accepts that their heft carries great responsibility. They could change the tendering process under that principle without having to privatize the railways, but the foreign state run railways that run many of our franchises perhaps have two too few legs or something.

 

[abelard]

The Tories and Lib Dems are government. They may not be the government you would like, but they are government nonetheless. Even with your train comments, you're complaining about a tendering system set up by the government. I vaguely recall something in the Labour manifesto talking about the purchasing power of government and how Labour will use that as a force for good, which accepts that their heft carries great responsibility. They could change the tendering process under that principle without having to privatize the railways, but the foreign state run railways that run many of our franchises perhaps have two too few legs or something.

It was a tendering system set up the Conservative Party, and opposed (rightfully) by the opposition. Had a different party been in power, the government would not have done something so stupid.

Government is not a neutral, indifferent force.

It can be effective, unless it is commanded by people who are ideologically committed to rendering it ineffective - which is what has happened for decades in this country to disastrous effect.

The point you are trying to make is absurd.

It would be like me noting @davek's dislike of Koeman, then accusing him of ignorance and hypocrisy for not eliminating the entire position of football manager at Everton altogether: "Koeman may not be the manager you like, but he is a manager nonetheless!" "You are complaining about tactics set up by a manager!" "You're saying the manager screwed up, so what we need is another manager???"

By the way, do illuminate how, after the corporations running it have failed twice in three years, the LNER has since been run into the ground by the lazy and incompotent fat-cat bureaucrats who've once again had to rescue it (in exactly the manner that Corbyn has outlined).

I mean, I know its spectacular failure dialectically must be what is happening, because it stands in violation of Pure Reason and Natural Law, but in my ivory-tower naivety (not an industry man after all...) I haven't noticed anything particularly different, save no longer having to skim money off the top into Richard Branson's fantasy tax-avoidance island.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I suppose that's what I struggle with, in that you're saying the government screwed up, so what we need is even more government. It's one of the absurdities of the privatisation debate, as people oppose the French or German governments running British trains but think the British government will do a sterling job of it. Just because Jezzer had a train set when he was a kid or something. There's a whole army of far controllers sat on the dole waiting to ride in and save us from the mean Europeans who haven't run the trains on time since Mussolini, coz the idea that it would be the same people running the trains and the only change would be Jezzer sat on the floor barking orders is clearly rather silly.

If you're riding your bike and the tire blows, you don't blame the concept of tires, you put the fault on the one that's failed and get a new one.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It was a tendering system set up the Conservative Party, and opposed (rightfully) by the opposition. Had a different party been in power, the government would not have done something so stupid.

Government is not a neutral, indifferent force.

It can be effective, unless it is commanded by people who are ideologically committed to rendering it ineffective - which is what has happened for decades in this country to disastrous effect.

The point you are trying to make is absurd.

It would be like me noting @davek's dislike of Koeman, then accusing him of ignorance and hypocrisy for not eliminating the entire position of football manager at Everton altogether: "Koeman may not be the manager you like, but he is a manager nonetheless!" "You are complaining about tactics set up by a manager!" "You're saying the manager screwed up, so what we need is another manager???"

By the way, do illuminate how, after the corporations running it have failed twice in three years, the LNER has since been run into the ground by the lazy and incompotent fat-cat bureaucrats who've once again had to rescue it (in exactly the manner that Corbyn has outlined).

I mean, I know its spectacular failure dialectically must be what is happening, because it stands in violation of Pure Reason and Natural Law, but in my ivory-tower naivety (not an industry man after all...) I haven't noticed anything particularly different, save no longer having to skim money off the top into Richard Branson's fantasy tax-avoidance island.

So government is only okay providing the only government we have is a Labour one? Regarding the LNER, there is absolutely no question in my mind that there are incompetent people, there are crooked people, there are lazy people. No doubts at all. That's just humanity for you. Where we seem to differ is that I'm realistic enough to know that you'll find such people across society, whereas you seem to think they only exist outside the hallowed halls of the Labour party.

There is absolutely no evidence at all that Corbyn knows how to run a train network. You're proposing that he can out of blind faith in his mission.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

If you're riding your bike and the tire blows, you don't blame the concept of tires, you put the fault on the one that's failed and get a new one.

Indeed, and a doctor isn't the holiest of the holy when she works for the NHS and the evilest crook should they have a few private clients on the side. We can surely accept a slightly more nuanced view of the world than some good vs evil twaddle you'd expect in a children's book (or the bible if you prefer).

 

[orchard]

If you're riding your bike and the tire blows, you don't blame the concept of tires, you put the fault on the one that's failed and get a new one.

Interesting to note how people shift to 'government'/mp's when they don't want to blame a particular party and the position is indefensible.

 

[orchard]

Indeed, and a doctor isn't the holiest of the holy when she works for the NHS and the evilest crook should they have a few private clients on the side. We can surely accept a slightly more nuanced view of the world than some good vs evil twaddle you'd expect in a children's book (or the bible if you prefer).

Omg, condescension klaxon incoming.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Indeed, and a doctor isn't the holiest of the holy when she works for the NHS and the evilest crook should they have a few private clients on the side. We can surely accept a slightly more nuanced view of the world than some good vs evil twaddle you'd expect in a children's book (or the bible if you prefer).

I think the point is, and forgive me but I've not been properly reading it, to follow the concept through, that if you manufacture tires/bikes but are an advocate for less bikes, you might be less inclined to advocate for things like better cycle lanes, better safety practices. In fact you might actively attempt to curtail them.

 

[abelard]

So government is only okay providing the only government we have is a Labour one?

Again, you are willfully misinterpreting what I am saying. It is not a question of tribe, but a question of values.

Unfortunately, Labour is currently the only serious Party proposing much that is helpful, but this was not always the case.

The Conservative Party was far more constructive in the first half of the century than it has been since the mid 1970s.

There is absolutely no evidence at all that Corbyn knows how to run a train network. You're proposing that he can out of blind faith in his mission.

If you want to talk about twaddle you'd expect in a children's book, we can start with your idea that Corbyn will be administering the railways personally, by himself.

We both know that you actually know better.