Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Tubey]

But they're a crap opposition.

They really, really are though.

Look at that poll for example - they're only in the lead because of a short-term Tory collapse in support over Brexit and votes going to the likes of UKIP.

The fact they haven't been 10-plus points ahead for the last two years is nothing short of embarrassing.

 

[tsubaki]

I understand your point and obviously the press (in this case the S. Times) had some influenced in when it was released, yet to be fair it's not as simple as that.

The ongoing feud between Corbyn and Dame Margaret isn't a secret, so I suspect that this is just another element of the sledging from areas of the party.

For me, Labour being ahead in the polls is less of an issue and instead it's the relatively quiet period for the anti-Corbyn birgage which is the key point.

It must be a quiet period if that is the most they can come up with - as @magicjuan says it portrays Corbyn in a positive light (and its interesting that the Times hasn't released all of the tape).

I should say though that Hodge's demand - for an independent body to deal with complaints - is something that the leadership really should seize on with both hands, as it (a genuinely independent body) would prevent the purges we saw in 2015 and 2016 from ever happening again, and would ensure that senior people didn't get away with what they have been getting away with for a very long time (including these attacks on Corbyn).

 

[summerisle]

They really, really are though.

Look at that poll for example - they're only in the lead because of a short-term Tory collapse in support over Brexit and votes going to the likes of UKIP.

The fact they haven't been 10-plus points ahead for the last two years is nothing short of embarrassing.

It's now that matters, not two years ago.

 

[catcherintherye]

They really, really are though.

Look at that poll for example - they're only in the lead because of a short-term Tory collapse in support over Brexit and votes going to the likes of UKIP.

The fact they haven't been 10-plus points ahead for the last two years is nothing short of embarrassing.

I'm not being horrible mate, but numerous polls this week have put Labour 10+ points ahead. The Survation one will further validate this (and is the most reliable polling company).

This will also not be a "short term hit" for the Conservatives. I have spoken at great length, on numerous occasions, often to quite derisory people who crowed about polls before Brexit that we needed to wait until the end of March and you would see movement. This has been proven completely correct, polls remained stable, both sides essentially trading leads, and subsequently the Conservatives have collapsed.

I will make another prediction (which is more a reiteration of what I said previously) and it is that this will not be a short term collapse for the Tories. The Parties ratings are worse than May's. The major opponents ratings are worse than May's. The governments ratings are worse yet. This will not be turned around quickly. They will be obliterated in the next (May) elections. There are a host of other issues to add in, but they are not turning this around, this is the start of a process for them, and the question is really about how to best limit damage, as opposed to how to turn it around.

In the last 100 years, Labour have won 1 election where they have enjoyed a 10+ lead. This is not a realistic standard for not being embarrassing. A 10+ lead (which Labour is now regularly showing) is a remarkable achievement and not one to be scoffed at. The one occasions they did it, they would also have not done so, with the current lie of the land in Scotland.

 

[tsubaki]

They really, really are though.

Look at that poll for example - they're only in the lead because of a short-term Tory collapse in support over Brexit and votes going to the likes of UKIP.

The fact they haven't been 10-plus points ahead for the last two years is nothing short of embarrassing.

Not really; they've been under continual attack for those two years and as we are seeing with the Tories, the voters hate a divided party more than anything else.

The important thing is (and sorry for repeating myself) that they keep getting 35-40% of the vote despite these attacks. Go into a GE with that as a base, with TIG being more of a threat to the Tories than them (at least looking at today's defections) and with the UKIP / Farage clowns taking votes off the Tories as well and we could be in 1997 territory again.

 

[davek]

There's no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. Opposing Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people is not anti-Semitic. It's decency and common sense.
Corbyn hasn't hammered that message home enough.

Quite right.

The re-election of a neo-nazi like Netanyahu should have been shouted from the rooftops.

The LP should be using every available platform to demand a boycott of Israeli products and a boycott of them culturally. There is no difference now between the fate of the Palestinians in Israel and the black population of apartheid South Africa.

To keep silent on it for the purposes of quietism in the LP is to ultimately condone it.

Hodge and John Mann and all the other supporters of fascism in Israel will have won the day if Labour remain largely cowed into silence on the issue.

 

[tsubaki]

Quite right.

The re-election of a neo-nazi like Netanyahu should have been shouted from the rooftops.

The LP should be using every available platform to demand a boycott of Israeli products and a boycott of them culturally. There is no difference now between the fate of the Palestinians in Israel and the black population of apartheid South Africa.

To keep silent on it for the purposes of quietism in the LP is to ultimately condone it.

Hodge and John Mann and all the other supporters of fascism in Israel will have won the day if Labour remain largely cowed into silence on the issue.

Dave, this is absolutely indicative of where the problem is.

Netanyahu is personally corrupt, uses racist language for his own political advantage, heads a government that discriminates against its citizens (including Jews) based on their religion (and race), demonstrably oppresses millions of people and (to put the best spin on it) appears unconcerned when dozens / hundreds of people are killed by the forces under his command. What he is doing is deserving of absolute condemnation and opposition.

So its baffling why people (you here) feel the need to describe him and his country using terms like neo-Nazi and fascist, and drawing parallels with the apartheid regime especially when loads of people have said what is wrong with using terms like that shorn of all context and when some of them (in the case of Nazi comparisons) are obviously and deliberately offensive. The refusal to even acknowledge that some language may be wrong and continuing to use them does 90% of Hodges work for her.

 

[davek]

Dave, this is absolutely indicative of where the problem is.

Netanyahu is personally corrupt, uses racist language for his own political advantage, heads a government that discriminates against its citizens (including Jews) based on their religion (and race), demonstrably oppresses millions of people and (to put the best spin on it) appears unconcerned when dozens / hundreds of people are killed by the forces under his command. What he is doing is deserving of absolute condemnation and opposition.

So its baffling why people (you here) feel the need to describe him and his country using terms like neo-Nazi and fascist, and drawing parallels with the apartheid regime especially when loads of people have said what is wrong with using terms like that shorn of all context and when some of them (in the case of Nazi comparisons) are obviously and deliberately offensive. The refusal to even acknowledge that some language may be wrong and continuing to use them does 90% of Hodges work for her.

I point you in the direction of an old and wise saying: "If the cap fits, wear it".

Finesse is exactly what the Israelis count on: the niceties that allow them to hide their crimes against humanity.

In the 70s and 80s the South African regime relied on politicians and the commentariat in Europe and North America telling their critics that it was best not to condemn the apartheid regime because they were an oasis of capitalism amongst African nationalism fuelled by Soviet sponsored socialsm.

There's always an excuse until the penny drops: you fight those people with economic and cultural isolation to topple them. Words are a weapon in that armoury.

 

[dannyboy]

They really, really are though.

Look at that poll for example - they're only in the lead because of a short-term Tory collapse in support over Brexit and votes going to the likes of UKIP.

The fact they haven't been 10-plus points ahead for the last two years is nothing short of embarrassing.

Remember when Corbyn took over and the Labour party was on the brink? Remember when people said a Corbyn government would never be elected? Stop shifting the goalposts. A genuine socialist party is odds on favourite to win the next election. That in itself is incredible and I absolutely love how much it winds so many people up.

 

[magicjuan]

Dave, this is absolutely indicative of where the problem is.

Netanyahu is personally corrupt, uses racist language for his own political advantage, heads a government that discriminates against its citizens (including Jews) based on their religion (and race), demonstrably oppresses millions of people and (to put the best spin on it) appears unconcerned when dozens / hundreds of people are killed by the forces under his command. What he is doing is deserving of absolute condemnation and opposition.

So its baffling why people (you here) feel the need to describe him and his country using terms like neo-Nazi and fascist, and drawing parallels with the apartheid regime especially when loads of people have said what is wrong with using terms like that shorn of all context and when some of them (in the case of Nazi comparisons) are obviously and deliberately offensive. The refusal to even acknowledge that some language may be wrong and continuing to use them does 90% of Hodges work for her.

If, if, there are direct comparisons, then subtlety is not an ally. I am 'deliberately' offended by unintended appeasement of the behaviour of Israel, and for the purposes of clarity, I mean Israel as represented by publicly elected officials and their ongoing onslaught and assault against an indigenous population in a targetted and racist genocidal programme of systematic torture and state sponsored warfare carried out under a belief of racial superiority above all others.
Not sure if there's an inoffensive name for that to hand though.

 

[tsubaki]

If, if, there are direct comparisons, then subtlety is not an ally. I am 'deliberately' offended by unintended appeasement of the behaviour of Israel, and for the purposes of clarity, I mean Israel as represented by publicly elected officials and their ongoing onslaught and assault against an indigenous population in a targetted and racist genocidal programme of systematic torture and state sponsored warfare carried out under a belief of racial superiority above all others.
Not sure if there's an inoffensive name for that to hand though.

Its easy - just condemn them for what they do, don't think that you need to embellish it by borrowing adjectives used to describe other people to make an argument seem more relevant.

We are after all talking about a government whose troops deliberately shot a 20 year old female paramedic dead last year as she was trying to treat people, so why some people feel the need to bang on about zionism, apartheid or Nazis to describe the awfulness of that act and others is a complete mystery to me.

 

[magicjuan]

Its easy - just condemn them for what they do, don't think that you need to embellish it by borrowing adjectives used to describe other people to make an argument seem more relevant.

We are after all talking about a government whose troops deliberately shot a 20 year old female paramedic dead last year as she was trying to treat people, so why some people feel the need to bang on about zionism, apartheid or Nazis to describe the awfulness of that act and others is a complete mystery to me.

Because it isn't just the acts themselves, incidents like that happen daily around the world. What seperates acts like this are the explicit and implicit support it recieves from western governments that are used to justify the behaviour and actions of a political mindset of racial superiority that carries them out. 'Justification'. Political. Racial superiority. Banging on about it? Really?
I'll repeat myself again here. I see all bigotry as equally abhorrent and unjustifiable. However, limiting whatever language to 'temper' the offence towards perpetrators or those that tacitly support the regime that carries out these inhumane acts elevates the feelings as taking primacy over others. Their pain is a greater pain? No.
Carrying out a set of behaviours ' because it was done to you' doesn't work. It isn't a free pass, which is the way it appears.

 

[Walken]

 

[JimmyJeffers]

I'm not being horrible mate, but numerous polls this week have put Labour 10+ points ahead. The Survation one will further validate this (and is the most reliable polling company).

This will also not be a "short term hit" for the Conservatives. I have spoken at great length, on numerous occasions, often to quite derisory people who crowed about polls before Brexit that we needed to wait until the end of March and you would see movement. This has been proven completely correct, polls remained stable, both sides essentially trading leads, and subsequently the Conservatives have collapsed.

I will make another prediction (which is more a reiteration of what I said previously) and it is that this will not be a short term collapse for the Tories. The Parties ratings are worse than May's. The major opponents ratings are worse than May's. The governments ratings are worse yet. This will not be turned around quickly. They will be obliterated in the next (May) elections. There are a host of other issues to add in, but they are not turning this around, this is the start of a process for them, and the question is really about how to best limit damage, as opposed to how to turn it around.

In the last 100 years, Labour have won 1 election where they have enjoyed a 10+ lead. This is not a realistic standard for not being embarrassing. A 10+ lead (which Labour is now regularly showing) is a remarkable achievement and not one to be scoffed at. The one occasions they did it, they would also have not done so, with the current lie of the land in Scotland.

I imagine that may’s role now is to take all the heat. The Tories will have a new leader for a GE. Depends which direction they want to go but I reckon Raab might get it. I’ll vote labour but I’d be surprised if they won a GE. I reckon the Corbyn smears will stick.

 

[davek]

I imagine that may’s role now is to take all the heat. The Tories will have a new leader for a GE. Depends which direction they want to go but I reckon Raab might get it. I’ll vote labour but I’d be surprised if they won a GE. I reckon the Corbyn smears will stick.

It'll need more than a new name over the door for that lot to get a majority in the next election.