Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Boss_Blue]

Good god, can someone please ban Holiday for spamming?

 

[Boss_Blue]

And while they're at it, dropkick Tom Watson in the head.

 

[dholliday]

Just a suggestion - why not have a thread for Zionism/Anti Semitism /Israel/ Jewish matters in general?

We'll end up mostly speaking about how it relates to Corbyn & anti-semitism within the Labour Party, which is this thread.

 

[dholliday]

Good god, can someone please ban Holiday for spamming?

double-L, please

 

[Boss_Blue]

double-L, please

Did you just assume my spelling?

 

[Blue 1]

Some would argue that being ant-Zionist is denying Israel's very right to exist.

I tend to avoid using the word "zionist" when discussing the Israel if I can help it. It's not often really necessary.

 

[dholliday]

Some would argue that being ant-Zionist is denying Israel's very right to exist.

I tend to avoid using the word "zionist" when discussing the Israel if I can help it. It's not often really necessary.

Aye, hence why I wouldn't say I'm an anti-zionist as I believe in & support Israel's right to exist. But their protectionist & expansionist methods are, let's say diplomatically, unsound. That makes me a critic of Israeli foreign policy, but not specifically an anti-zionist and nowhere close to an anti-semite.

I've rarely used the term myself in all the years I've (occasionally) commented on the Israel/Palestine issue. Here however often as the discussion has been whether the use of it is offensive and whether Labour members (and anyone else) using the term are being anti-semitic. I think I've covered all possible bases now to reach the conclusion of: no, it's not offensive when used in fair context and no, Labour members aren't automatically anti-semitic if they use that term.

People are offensive/anti-semitic when they use that term in a context which appears to be hostile & prejudiced towards jewish folk generally. I'd group a few of the crackpot conspiracy theorists here, and certain sections of extremist Left/Right-wing antagonisers. I don't think such low-end groups should have so much influence that their use of one word carries so much weight that it forces learned folk to cease using it in fair context.

It is a word that describes the current doctrine of the Israeli State, it's not a word outsiders dreamt up to denigrate jewish folk. As such it's an important word that has valid use in open debate. There's many avenues to explore with that word, including post-zionism. (a.k.a the One State Solution) and others, discussion of which would be tricky if we're encouraged to not use that word in debate.

Soz for the long reply, I just don't have a short way of saying it!

 

[tsubaki]

and one more, Kenan Malik of The Guardian has a timely article today with some interesting points which mirror mine & others' arguments:

Antisemites use the language of anti-Zionism. The two are distinct. Zionism is a form of ethnic, as opposed to civic, nationalism. To oppose Zionism but not other forms of ethnic nationalism would indeed be antisemitic. But to oppose Zionism because one opposes ethnic nationalism is a legitimate view.

I’d read Malik’s last paragraphs if I were you. That is what several people here have tried to point out.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Momentum's Jon Lansman seemed to think there was an issue on the radio this morning.

 

[dholliday]

I’d read Malik’s last paragraphs if I were you. That is what several people here have tried to point out.

yep, it was a balanced piece like the BBC's was. Neither are calling for a ban on the use of the word, but they do want people aware of how to use it in correct context.

 

[tsubaki]

Momentum's Jon Lansman seemed to think there was an issue on the radio this morning.

You can only explain to people what is wrong with what they are saying for so long, if they keep saying it / denying that it’s them then I am not sure what else you can do.

I am not sure that “hardcore antisemites” is the best way of describing many of them mind.

 

[tsubaki]

yep, it was a balanced piece like the BBC's was. Neither are calling for a ban on the use of the word, but they do want people aware of how to use it in correct context.

People aren’t using it in the correct context though.

 

[dholliday]

People aren’t using it in the correct context though.

This is the bit where we agree: if people aren't using it in its correct context then it's right they be corrected. But overdoing the correction (as you have been in this thread, when you claimed I came close to sounding anti-semitic myself) is counter-productive, for we both have the same targets, namely:

• the incessant online abuse against from stupid hateful trolls against not just jewish folk but other folk.
• the members of the Labour Party who openly question the official Holocaust story in an offensive manner, and who have some sympathies with the crackpot conspiracy theories out there (Rothschilds etc) which aren't too careful with how they word things, and do indeed use the term "zíonist" as a form of abuse which appear to be directed at all jewish folk.

Our targets shouldn't be fair discussion of the doctrine of zionism, nor of the word itself.

 

[dholliday]

Momentum's Jon Lansman seemed to think there was an issue on the radio this morning.

Lansman has been vocal for years about shutting down talk of zionism when criticising Israeli's politics towards Palestinians. Here's an extract from his own blog:

--- Why is a new language necessary: because British Jews, most of whom support a Palestinian state (71%), and see the expansion of settlements as a major obstacle to peace (75%) and feel a sense of despair when they are expanded (68%) generally see themselves as “Zionists” (59%) with more who also “possess some traditionally ‘Zionist’ attitudes“) – all figures from The Attitudes of British Jews towards Israel). Zionism takes many forms, and British Zionists (at least those who are Jewish) are a world apart from Israeli Zionists. In Israel, tragically, a plurality of Jews (48% versus 46%) believe “Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel” and disagree that “a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully with each other” (45% to 43%) – data from Pew Research Center. ---

His point is that the meaning of the term zionism has morphed due to many jewish people, especially outside Israel, having more sympathies with the Palestinian folk over the last few decades while still identifying with 'zionism'.

My point is that Israeli government policy is an interpretation of zionism, more specifically how to protect & maintain it, hence why we should continue to be able to talk about it.

Lansman's heart seems to be in the right place. His article has many interesting reader comments, some which mirror our posts here. There's also a needling response from John Rees (founder of Stop The War Coalition).


From your Twitter link, the first reply to Lansman is "I’m a UK Labour member and I see zero evidence of Anti-Semitism at grassroots."

Elsewhere we see on Twitter another feed which claims to name names of allegedly anti-semitic Labour members:


There is a solid argument that there festers some anti-semitism not just within the Labour Party, but within society itself. However, according to the UK Crown Prosecution Service the numbers of anti-jew hate crimes prosecuted is tiny (less than 1% of overall prosecutions), even taking into account the increased % of Arab folk who now live in the UK.

Mayhap the problem is somewhat overstated. Given the serious actions of the Israeli government against Arab peoples coupled with the fact that jewish persons lead the major US media outlets, we should be wary of attempts to change the story.

TL/DR = the term zionist shouldn't be verboten when used in fair context.

 

[dholliday]

As we should, we judge on who and how many are the real victims. Post-WW2 we damned the Nazis and protected the jews. That was right. Now we should be damning the Israeli government while protecting the Palestinians (which Corbyn for one would sure like to do). This isn't happening due in part to conversations like in this thread.

I've got friends from Jordan and thereabouts (despite me not hiding my scepticism of Islam). During especially the summer of 2014 one friend was in tears at what was happening. He knew people on the Gaza Strip. He was a broken man that summer because he knew there was a huge number of real victims, he was also sad at how the Western media appeared to play down the events, with much sympathetic focus on the three murdered israeli teenagers rather than the heavy-handed response (multiple random airstrikes without warning, thousands of homes ransacked, over a thousand dead Palestinians in all).

Total civilian death toll during the 2014 Gaza Strip conflict (figures from UN).

6 Israeli civilians, 61 soldiers.
1651 Palestinian civilians, 600 soldiers.

Try telling him that the real problem is the commentariat using the word zionism incorrectly!