Current Affairs The Labour Party

[The binman chronicles]

I can see the overall sentiment but I don't believe it's a very fair reflection. I think you are adjusting evidence to suit your position.

What position might that be? I'm naturally centre left but I want the Labour party to do well. If nothing else the country needs strong opposition. You are saying that that election result was the best bar 1 for 50 years, well give me a worse one that actually led to a Labour government any day of the week. Share of vote matters not when it doesn't reflect the number of MPs in the house.

This momentum that has built around Corbyn is partly due to he had such a low bar to hit in the first place. Then for a myriad of reasons, call it the new manager bounce, the Tory party had just screwed up (I don't agree at all they were getting stronger - when you lose your PM and chancellor after a game changing referendum, it does not scream strength), and then Maybot went haywire during the election. I noticed and I'm sure many others will have too. Then you have to give him credit for they way he ran his campaign, the troops were in order and he did a good job in his more natural home on a soapbox.

All this however does not equate to him being the messiah and next time around he will sweep into number 10. For an opposition not to be ahead (& I mean miles ahead) at this stage against such a weak, shambles of a government is astonishing. I would pay for more attention to that than a one off election back in 2017. It's like Everton scoring 3 goals against a top four side but still coming away losing 4-3. Yes good that we managed to score that many but in the end it matters not one jot.

 

[davek]

I can't stand the bloke. He talks of treating ordinary people with respect, yet he was happy to suspend an entire CLP because a Jewish bloke put in a motion about de-selecting an MP who has later admitted was planning to leave and that they had become aware of. He also slandered the same working class city as a disgrace and insinuated they were racist (an easily brought out trope). This is a city that has had decades of Conservative attacks in the media against it and he has lined up with them, to attack a city that regularly returns Labour MP's in a greater proportion than any other.

He has also backed a woman who think's it's acceptable to refer to anyone who is not white as having a "funny tinge". A private school boy who called ordinary people "trash".

We could go on of course, but his approach is positively Orwellian in his double speak. When is he going to provide an apology to the people of Liverpool for the unfounded insults he used against it?

I can only talk for myself, but they won't getting any support from me going forward if they pull this coup off.

When that feller is out of the LP you'll know that party is back in business as a fighting organisation fully committed to ending inequality.

I just hope that his threat yesaterday to leave and encourage others to if the leadership doesn't shift back toward the centre-right position he wants it to be in again (which is the essence of this stunt) is stood up to. The ball is in motion now; these people have only one move left in order to gain back control of the LP: to leave it. Enciourage them to do that, dont accomodate them. The left in the party have to seize this as the opportunity it is to get shut of the free marketeers and thereby offer the electorate the real choice at the a ballot they've been denied since the 1980s.

Get Watson down the road. The rest of them will follow.

 

[catcherintherye]

What position might that be? I'm naturally centre left but I want the Labour party to do well. If nothing else the country needs strong opposition. You are saying that that election result was the best bar 1 for 50 years, well give me a worse one that actually led to a Labour government any day of the week. Share of vote matters not when it doesn't reflect the number of MPs in the house.

This momentum that has built around Corbyn is partly due to he had such a low bar to hit in the first place. Then for a myriad of reasons, call it the new manager bounce, the Tory party had just screwed up (I don't agree at all they were getting stronger - when you lose your PM and chancellor after a game changing referendum, it does not scream strength), and then Maybot went haywire during the election. I noticed and I'm sure many others will have too. Then you have to give him credit for they way he ran his campaign, the troops were in order and he did a good job in his more natural home on a soapbox.

All this however does not equate to him being the messiah and next time around he will sweep into number 10. For an opposition not to be ahead (& I mean miles ahead) at this stage against such a weak, shambles of a government is astonishing. I would pay for more attention to that than a one off election back in 2017. It's like Everton scoring 3 goals against a top four side but still coming away losing 4-3. Yes good that we managed to score that many but in the end it matters not one jot.

The position that Corbyn's electoral result was that impressive. On each point.

Yes in many ways I agree, I'd rather Labour won, You can only control what is within your control base though. The "right" vote had been building up over a 20 year period and he didn't have the luxury of winning an election with circa 35% of the vote. Those are not things within Corbyn's control. What was in his control was how many votes he received and what % he could attract which he did very well. You do have problems of legitimacy of winning with 35% of the vote too, it's good in the short term but rots away at a party over time.

I remember very few people proclaiming May to be useless during the election campaign and fewer still before it. Everyone predicted an enormous Conservative win. Most anti-cornyn thinkers thought she might win by 150+. I thought the opposite. It might sound churlish but I don't take those people's views very seriously anymore, especially when they employ the same methods of evaluation against Corbyn that led them to under estimate him at the last election.

I do pay attention to polls. I have gambled (and won) substantial values based off interpretation of Polls. The polls continue to be quite a bit out. There are numerical reasons why they are out and some cultural reasons. For me I will always take the concrete (and broad) data provided by an election over the biases of mathmatical geeks (most of who'm will only have a maths degree) in polling companies.

I am unsure why he would be miles ahead. The two parties are broadly similar in the polls, continually changing leads. There has been little movement. I suspect there won't be much movement until the exact details of Brexit are known. I have said this fairly consistently for 2 years. People will not move much.

Corbyn is by no means a Messiah. I have not made any contention that he is a messiah and nor would I. I try to be balanced and have written about experiences meeting him (for better and worse). Part of that balance has to be giving someone credit for outstanding electoral performance when it is shown. It surprised me how well he did and so you have to find some reason as to why that occurred. The May being useless one doesn't fit for me. The Tories are a ruthless outfit, if it was all her she'd be gone, They know there are more fundamental reasons than that.

 

[catcherintherye]

When that feller is out of the LP you'll know that party is back in business as a fighting organisation fully committed to ending inequality.

I just hope that his threat yesaterday to leave and encourage others to if the leadership doesn't shift back toward the centre-right position he wants it to be in again (which is the essence of this stunt) is stood up to. The ball is in motion now; these people have only one move left in order to gain back control of the LP: to leave it. Enciourage them to do that, dont accomodate them. The left in the party have to seize this as the opportunity it is to get shut of the free marketeers and thereby offer the electorate the real choice at the a ballot they've been denied since the 1980s.

Get Watson down the road. The rest of them will follow.

Watson is the worst kind of MP as he pretends to be something he is not. He jumps in behind Corbyn when it suits but will stab him in the back when he gets the chance too. Strangely I have more respect for a Jess Phillips and her "stab you from the front" statement, which though a poor metaphor I understand what she was trying to say (which was not about violence).

The issue you have with this, is the leadership and those who surround the leadership (the cadres) of the organisation are pretty poor. I know a good person who has left the shadow cabinet which worries me. There is a complete lack of understanding what they are up against, and the lengths the opponents will go.

The main gist of the (savvy) opposition is not necessarily about splits of resignations. A woman who doesn't know the phrase BAME or Asian is not the intellectual hub of this movement. Their strategy is to frustrate, demoralise, pacify and bamboozle the mass of people. Part of this is about embroiling the leadership in a needless struggle that will focus attentions on the internal minutiea and move away from the outward priorities that need to be addressed.

Yesterday and today was a wonderful moment to go public and make an open statement encouraging any MP that agrees with their agenda to leave but reiterate that those who stay need to show loyalty to the overall direction as outlined by hundreds of thousands of members and 13+ million voters. The policy that 1 person (To Watson) having listened to 7 (now ex) members can blackmail this mass of people should be treated as elitist treachery and be tackled.

Yet nothing will happen with Watson. No counter narrative. No challenge. No defence of the Wavertree CLP. No Labour leader defending the people of Liverpool.

Eventually the mass membership become demoralised as they can see those at the top of the party being able to openly flaunt the rules.

The inaction of the leadership is it's great weakness. Dare I say it's the great cowardice of the Corbyn project to defend the people who put him into office and want to support him. Where people have tried to do so, they've been hung out to dry.

 

[davek]

Watson is the worst kind of MP as he pretends to be something he is not. He jumps in behind Corbyn when it suits but will stab him in the back when he gets the chance too. Strangely I have more respect for a Jess Phillips and her "stab you from the front" statement, which though a poor metaphor I understand what she was trying to say (which was not about violence).

The issue you have with this, is the leadership and those who surround the leadership (the cadres) of the organisation are pretty poor. I know a good person who has left the shadow cabinet which worries me. There is a complete lack of understanding what they are up against, and the lengths the opponents will go.

The main gist of the (savvy) opposition is not necessarily about splits of resignations. A woman who doesn't know the phrase BAME or Asian is not the intellectual hub of this movement. Their strategy is to frustrate, demoralise, pacify and bamboozle the mass of people. Part of this is about embroiling the leadership in a needless struggle that will focus attentions on the internal minutiea and move away from the outward priorities that need to be addressed.

Yesterday and today was a wonderful moment to go public and make an open statement encouraging any MP that agrees with their agenda to leave but reiterate that those who stay need to show loyalty to the overall direction as outlined by hundreds of thousands of members and 13+ million voters. The policy that 1 person (To Watson) having listened to 7 (now ex) members can blackmail this mass of people should be treated as elitist treachery and be tackled.

Yet nothing will happen with Watson. No counter narrative. No challenge. No defence of the Wavertree CLP. No Labour leader defending the people of Liverpool.

Eventually the mass membership become demoralised as they can see those at the top of the party being able to openly flaunt the rules.

The inaction of the leadership is it's great weakness. Dare I say it's the great cowardice of the Corbyn project to defend the people who put him into office and want to support him. Where people have tried to do so, they've been hung out to dry.

I agree with your conclusions there. The LP leadership has to accept that the fight with those to its right cant be run away from any longer. I've always argued that deselections should have been launched immediately Corbyn became leader for the second time, and more especially after he consolidated his position after the last election results. The shame of it is that he's a parliamentarian and a creature of the Commons; he'll naturally gravitate toward building up a 'popular front' type of party that includes the so called centre-left (in reality there is NOTHING leftist about them).

The whole of the labour movement outside parliament is Corbyn's power base and he should be leaning heavily on them to finally deal with the Blairites and neo-Blairites. If he doesn't he'll become their creature and the LP will eventually just drift back to the centre ground again and become the basket case it was under Miliband: appealing to no one other than the uninspiring shower of political pygmies calling the shots.

 

[catcherintherye]

I agree with your conclusions there. The LP leadership has to accept that the fight with those to its right cant be run away from any longer. I've always argued that deselections should have been launched immediately Corbyn became leader for the second time, and more especially after he consolidated his position after the last election results. The shame of it is that he's a parliamentarian and a creature of the Commons; he'll naturally gravitate toward building up a 'popular front' type of party that includes the so called centre-left (in reality there is NOTHING leftist about them).

The whole of the labour movement outside parliament is Corbyn's power base and he should be leaning heavily on them to finally deal with the Blairites and neo-Blairites. If he doesn't he'll become their creature and the LP will eventually just drift back to the centre ground again and become the basket case it was under Miliband: appealing to no one other than the uninspiring shower of political pygmies calling the shots.

Yes I agree with most of this. Say what you want of his opponents but they grasp the nature of his political strength more astutely than him. As a slight aside I've been re-reading much of Trotsky, particularly from secondary sources and his conduct around 1917, and it's frankly laughable people put Corbyn in to his category.

The issue for Corbyn to me is very much the issue of the wider left of the LP. They are very tied in to the institution of the LP. I think Tony Benn always used to say there was an enormous important of the LP maintaining a right wing and a left wing in order to fly (or some equivalent logic). There are moments like this where it becomes clear the only way to advance a progressive leftists agenda is to risk jeopardising the LP and they are unwilling to contemplate it. That fear and inaction is sensed by their opponents and maximised.

The point you make about outside of Westminster is spot on too. The truth is he is terrible at the Westminster stuff. He would make an awful regularity SD leader (unlike say a Mcdonnell who is quite good at that stuff) but he is very good on the streets. That he continually keeps trying to reduce his role to being more like a conventional statesman shows a lack of understanding of how he would come to power.

I will make a bold prediction, and one which will not be popular, but he will not lead a left wing change on society. If he cannot stand up to Tom Watson, what chance is he going to have when the apparatus of the state is bearing down on him? Very few of his people (and I include Paul Mason in this) when that is put to them have any kind of coherent answer to this, other than a naive hope he will be accepted.

The outlandish thing of those who are splitting is that they don't make any advancement on any of the areas of weakness he has. If anything they somehow manage to walk further in the wrong direction. They want him to moderate further. It's truly awful strategic advice. Anyone who thinks the Labour Party are going to win votes by Corbyn trying to act more like Blair or Wilson should be well away from political strategy.

 

[peteblue]

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It's called debate and fighting your corner to win the argument - and it worked eventually.....something that was open to the 7 who left that party yesterday, if only they'd had the backbone to do it.

They could show some backbone and earn some begrudging respect from myself but they wont face the electorate. However, literally in the same interviews they are calling for another referendum vote and then saying people have had enough of voting when its holding themselves to account, typical center right Blairites. If that's their new way of doing politics they are better off with the Tories and Liberals, do as I say not what I do.

 

[tsubaki]

Someone should really remind Watson that when he talks about “the leadership”, that he is Deputy Leader.

 

[tsubaki]

Yes I agree with most of this. Say what you want of his opponents but they grasp the nature of his political strength more astutely than him. As a slight aside I've been re-reading much of Trotsky, particularly from secondary sources and his conduct around 1917, and it's frankly laughable people put Corbyn in to his category.

The issue for Corbyn to me is very much the issue of the wider left of the LP. They are very tied in to the institution of the LP. I think Tony Benn always used to say there was an enormous important of the LP maintaining a right wing and a left wing in order to fly (or some equivalent logic). There are moments like this where it becomes clear the only way to advance a progressive leftists agenda is to risk jeopardising the LP and they are unwilling to contemplate it. That fear and inaction is sensed by their opponents and maximised.

The point you make about outside of Westminster is spot on too. The truth is he is terrible at the Westminster stuff. He would make an awful regularity SD leader (unlike say a Mcdonnell who is quite good at that stuff) but he is very good on the streets. That he continually keeps trying to reduce his role to being more like a conventional statesman shows a lack of understanding of how he would come to power.

I will make a bold prediction, and one which will not be popular, but he will not lead a left wing change on society. If he cannot stand up to Tom Watson, what chance is he going to have when the apparatus of the state is bearing down on him? Very few of his people (and I include Paul Mason in this) when that is put to them have any kind of coherent answer to this, other than a naive hope he will be accepted.

The outlandish thing of those who are splitting is that they don't make any advancement on any of the areas of weakness he has. If anything they somehow manage to walk further in the wrong direction. They want him to moderate further. It's truly awful strategic advice. Anyone who thinks the Labour Party are going to win votes by Corbyn trying to act more like Blair or Wilson should be well away from political strategy.

For almost every part of the past century you'd have been spot on with this.

However since Blair's time - and certainly 2010-2015 - the state (the old establishment, if you will) has had an awful lot of damage inflicted on it, often deliberately as cuts, events, daft management and outsourcing have hammered the military, the police and even the intelligence services. The papers are all in decline, and thanks to Leveson are not trusted anyway; the BBC has likewise seen its funding reduced and the quality of its journalism has suffered. Thanks to the deregulation, the crash and tax avoidance most of the City is now occupied by spivs who pay £75000 to meet Theresa May rather than the sort that would have been expected her to phone them not so long ago.

I mean, would a backbencher like Corbyn, with his past support for republicanism (both kinds) ever have got anywhere near the top of the Labour Party even twenty years ago?

 

[davek]

They could show some backbone and earn some begrudging respect from myself but they wont face the electorate. However, literally in the same interviews they are calling for another referendum vote and then saying people have had enough of voting when its holding themselves to account, typical center right Blairites. If that's their new way of doing politics they are better off with the Tories and Liberals, do as I say not what I do.

They have no honour. Just about the only people who will indulge them are the media, who will hand them all the help they need to make their puny case for being seen as somehow relevant and use them as a weapon to attack the left leadership of the LP - which is what they're there to do at all times since Corbyn unexpectedly came to power.

 

[davek]

Someone should really remind Watson that when he talks about “the leadership”, that he is Deputy Leader.

...and remind him he took £500,000 off a man who likes to dress up in SS uniforms and belt women all over the shop.

 

[davek]

View attachment 54574

If only it were more than that..

It seems the shedding of the neo-cons came to a halt today.

Shame. There needs to be another 30-40 slung out before it becomes the real Labour Party again.

Hopefully the dregs have another press conference in mind to parade the rest of their ilk.

 

[catcherintherye]

For almost every part of the past century you'd have been spot on with this.

However since Blair's time - and certainly 2010-2015 - the state (the old establishment, if you will) has had an awful lot of damage inflicted on it, often deliberately as cuts, events, daft management and outsourcing have hammered the military, the police and even the intelligence services. The papers are all in decline, and thanks to Leveson are not trusted anyway; the BBC has likewise seen its funding reduced and the quality of its journalism has suffered. Thanks to the deregulation, the crash and tax avoidance most of the City is now occupied by spivs who pay £75000 to meet Theresa May rather than the sort that would have been expected her to phone them not so long ago.

I mean, would a backbencher like Corbyn, with his past support for republicanism (both kinds) ever have got anywhere near the top of the Labour Party even twenty years ago?

There is little doubt the ruling class is very weak. However Corbyn (and it has to be said Mcdonnell) are showing very little leadership on this question. Beyond the left of Labour, there lack of intellectual leadership is startling. To build the sort of transformation required you do require that.

 

[Harryflashman]

...and remind him he took £500,000 off a man who likes to dress up in SS uniforms and belt women all over the shop.

You can see the good in everyone Dave