Current Affairs The Labour Party

Status
Not open for further replies.
You’re more likely to see a bigger shift of mail readers voting for that Reform party than switching to Labour.

If you had a crisp tenner to lay on the extinction of either Labour or the the Tories first, where would that cash go?

Both parties seem to be unsustainable in the current "broad church" form, the Tories especially have binned off anyone that seems reasonably sensible.
 
If you had a crisp tenner to lay on the extinction of either Labour or the the Tories first, where would that cash go?

Both parties seem to be unsustainable in the current "broad church" form, the Tories especially have binned off anyone that seems reasonably sensible.

Labour.

They’ve abandoned a large part of their vote base.

I can see a future where the unions start to leave them behind and Labour become a pure liberal party and a new workers party is established.

The tories never hesitate moving towards the far right to and their core voters don’t really care how racist they become.
 
Labour.

They’ve abandoned a large part of their vote base.

I can see a future where the unions start to leave them behind and Labour become a pure liberal party and a new workers party is established.

The tories never hesitate moving towards the far right to and their core voters don’t really care how racist they become.
A lot of the traditional working class vote has shifted right. Large Right wing parties don’t have to deviate too far to pick some of this up leaving the traditional left with a fragmented voter base whilst the right retains their core vote.

Interesting in Portugal, the centre right have refused to form a coalition with the far right, meaning they lead a minority government. The centre left have promised to provide responsible opposition.
Whether this will further embolden the far right remains to be seen.
 
In all honestly, Labour and the Lib Dem’s should be looking at merging together in the future.

It makes a mockery of our whole system when you have Labour supporters having to vote Lib Dem’s and vice versa just to keep the tories out because the system is so heavily weighted in their favour.

Replace the Lib Dem’s with a genuine left wing party and you’ll have a much more democratic process.

The left have nowhere to go in the current climate other than to the fringe parties or independents. Other than a few Labour MPs, the one green MP and a smattering of independents they’ll be no left wing voice in parliament.

It made me laugh when all the sensible centrists were claiming to be politically homeless in the last election like the lib dems didn’t exist.

The current system can’t carry on the way it is. It benefits so few of the electorate.
 
In all honestly, Labour and the Lib Dem’s should be looking at merging together in the future.

It makes a mockery of our whole system when you have Labour supporters having to vote Lib Dem’s and vice versa just to keep the tories out because the system is so heavily weighted in their favour.

Replace the Lib Dem’s with a genuine left wing party and you’ll have a much more democratic process.

The left have nowhere to go in the current climate other than to the fringe parties or independents. Other than a few Labour MPs, the one green MP and a smattering of independents they’ll be no left wing voice in parliament.

It made me laugh when all the sensible centrists were claiming to be politically homeless in the last election like the lib dems didn’t exist.

The current system can’t carry on the way it is. It benefits so few of the electorate.

I'm not personally saying you're wrong or wanting to invalidate what you believe about the political positions of the main parties, but if you spend any time in majority-Tory comments sections you find a lot of the same sentiment but inverted 180°:

"Starmer is a patsy & going to introduce Corbynism by the back door"
"The current Tory leadership are Lib Dem lights"
"Sunak is a Soft Socialist"
"Reform is going to pick up votes because the Right have nowhere else to go"

Are all things I've read in comments whilst perusing articles on ConservativeHome. Both can't be true but I expect these people believe their position just as fervently.

I suspect the real danger is the main parties all triangulating votes around an increasingly small centrist segment of the electorate. Left or Right, if you feel politically homeless and forgotten then you may be more easily convinced by chancers to jump at any opportunity for a shock to the system. This may be where support for Brexit was kindled, away from satisified centrist establishment eyes.
 
I'm not personally saying you're wrong or wanting to invalidate what you believe about the political positions of the main parties, but if you spend any time in majority-Tory comments sections you find a lot of the same sentiment but inverted 180°:

"Starmer is a patsy & going to introduce Corbynism by the back door"
"The current Tory leadership are Lib Dem lights"
"Sunak is a Soft Socialist"
"Reform is going to pick up votes because the Right have nowhere else to go"

Are all things I've read in comments whilst perusing articles on ConservativeHome. Both can't be true but I expect these people believe their position just as fervently.

I suspect the real danger is the main parties all triangulating votes around an increasingly small centrist segment of the electorate. Left or Right, if you feel politically homeless and forgotten then you may be more easily convinced by chancers to jump at any opportunity for a shock to the system. This may be where support for Brexit was kindled, away from satisified centrist establishment eyes.

Excuse the reply to my own post but this is an apposite example from a new artice today:

I cannot believe you actually polled any Tory voter who said this government is too right wing - they're a bunch of social democrats, hardly distinguishable from Labour: crippling taxes, anti-business, lax on illegal immigration and in favour of even more planning restrictions; even the Blob has grown under what is supposed to be a Tory govt, so please don't tell me they are right wing in any sense. Suella was saying what the majority in the country think and it needed to be said by someone brave enough to do so. This is why Reform has surged in popularity, as we on the Right of the Party are utterly fed up...

So there you go. After 14 years in power and watching their Leadership continually crater and buckle in the face of demands from the ERG and other harder-right headbangers and the Right of the Right are "utterly fed up". I can only imagine the nation would look post-apocalyptic if they felt like they'd actually had their way.
 
The two main political parties no longer represent the vast majority of people. This has led to poor leadership, inability of government to solve problems, and a growing gulf between the people and politicians.

In the 1970s, the Conservative party had almost a million members, most of whom were relatively normal people. Likewise, the Labour party ostensibly had millions of members through its affiliated trade unions, although many, possibly a majority, didn't always vote Labour. However, since then Labour and the Conservatives have lost a high proportion of their members, and those who remain tended to be the most committed, and therefore the most narrow, dogmatic and extreme in their views. Years ago, most party members were normal people, who, to a degree, reflected the population at large. That is no longer the case. Furthermore, in recent years the rules of both parties have been changed so that party members now select the leader, rather than MPs. This has been a huge mistake imho.


One only has to look at the Liz Truss premiership to get an example. It was obvious to any rational observer that Truss was not suitable for any high office, let alone the Prime Ministership. Yet Conservative Party members voted her into office despite her many clear weaknesses. The result was a disaster. Likewise, Labour Party members voted in Jeremy Corby, who, whatever one thinks of his political views, was in no shape or form a credible leader. He failed to win against the worst possible election campaign by the Conservatives in 2017, and led Labour to near annihilation in 2019. In the old days, party leaders were chosen by the MPs, who are elected by the people. So in essence, it was more democratic.

In order to get elected, Keir Starmer has promised to uphold the status quo. He has sacked his own MPs for supporting workers who went on strike - surely against the whole point of the Labour Party. He has lied about Brexit - you cannot “make Brexit work”, that is impossible, and he must know that.

Both of the main parties in the UK are following the same basic policies that have been dominant since the 1980s: the idea that the market decides everything, and deregulation and privatisation solve all problems. While many nationalised industries were notoriously inefficient, and some deregulation was needed in the 1970s, it has gone so far that by now, the results are that housing is unaffordable for most young people; the birth rate is lower than ever, necessitating mass immigration from mainly third world countries, which brings problems of its own. There is rising poverty, homelessness, massive use of food banks on a truly disturbing scale. Inequality is at its worst level for decades. Electricity, water and transport are expensive and incompetently managed and in many cases owned by foreigners.

I don't know what the answer is; one great improvement would be the introduction of Proportional Representation in Parliamentary elections. Under PR, the number of seats in Parliament would match the percentage of votes cast. This would break the hold of Labour and Conservatives, allowing new parties to form and succeed. It would also do a much better job of representing what people voted for, and lead to much more balanced politics, with a range of interests represented and with more consensus and less polarisation, and would stop governments with 42% of the votes having a huge majority and doing whatever they like. This would also improve the quality of party leaders, because in this system, they'll need to appeal to everybody rather than their base, and they'd often be in coalition which would restrict their ability to go too far off the rails into any particular ideology and force them to build consensus.
 
Excuse the reply to my own post but this is an apposite example from a new artice today:



So there you go. After 14 years in power and watching their Leadership continually crater and buckle in the face of demands from the ERG and other harder-right headbangers and the Right of the Right are "utterly fed up". I can only imagine the nation would look post-apocalyptic if they felt like they'd actually had their way.
There is an element of truth in it. The tax take is the highest since the war, and a big part of the Brexit vote was opposition to what business wanted (didn't Johnson say to "[Poor language removed] business"?). I'd say the Tories at the moment are very socially conservative, but it's hard to argue that they're in favour of a small state given how high taxes are. A big part of the problem is that they're stuffed full of utter cretins who don't know what they're doing.
 
There is an element of truth in it. The tax take is the highest since the war, and a big part of the Brexit vote was opposition to what business wanted (didn't Johnson say to "[Poor language removed] business"?). I'd say the Tories at the moment are very socially conservative, but it's hard to argue that they're in favour of a small state given how high taxes are. A big part of the problem is that they're stuffed full of utter cretins who don't know what they're doing.
This "highest taxes since the year dot" business needs to be looked at carefully. Income taxes are pretty low - 20% now, compared to a base rate 35% under Labour in the 1970s. Taxes on the very rich are pretty low at 45%; I believe that it was 85% in the 1970s. Indirect taxes, VAT, fees, charges etc are very high. Taxes on alcohol, tobacco, petrol, diesel and so on are much higher than 35 - 40 years ago.

Of course the very wealthy - multi-millionaires - always hire the best tax lawyers to escape paying taxes as much as they can, and of course they have the option of relocating to Monaco or some other tax haven, or even their super luxury yachts if they feel the UK's tax system is too onerous.

I wish I had a solution.
 
This "highest taxes since the year dot" business needs to be looked at carefully. Income taxes are pretty low - 20% now, compared to a base rate 35% under Labour in the 1970s. Taxes on the very rich are pretty low at 45%; I believe that it was 85% in the 1970s. Indirect taxes, VAT, fees, charges etc are very high. Taxes on alcohol, tobacco, petrol, diesel and so on are much higher than 35 - 40 years ago.

Of course the very wealthy - multi-millionaires - always hire the best tax lawyers to escape paying taxes as much as they can, and of course they have the option of relocating to Monaco or some other tax haven, or even their super luxury yachts if they feel the UK's tax system is too onerous.

I wish I had a solution.
Re tax rates, the thresholds haven't changed for a while now, so with inflation being what it is, an awful lot more people are in the utter bands than used to be the case.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top