Current Affairs The Labour Party

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Number_25 said:
No, but that doesn't make it right - does it?

I guess it boils down to one simple question:

What do you value more, democracy or free market capitalism?
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No, perhaps it doesn't, but accepting that perhaps goes further towards remedying it than posing abstract theoretical questions. If we assume that change is a constant, which pretty much all of human history tells us it is, then the choices are more can people be helped to better adapt to changes, or do we accept that some people won't be able to adapt and we wrap them in the welfare state for the remainder of their days.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
No, perhaps it doesn't, but accepting that perhaps goes further towards remedying it than posing abstract theoretical questions. If we assume that change is a constant, which pretty much all of human history tells us it is, then the choices are more can people be helped to better adapt to changes, or do we accept that some people won't be able to adapt and we wrap them in the welfare state for the remainder of their days.
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Having a welfare state is vital, and I'm understanding of peoples willingness to fight for it.
 
Number_25 said:
Having a welfare state is vital, and I'm understanding of peoples willingness to fight for it.
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I dont think any sane person would disagree. But I think Bruce was referring to the importance of assisting those who have fallen into it through no fault of their own, adapting their abilities to re train or something.

That doesnt apply, obviously, to those who will be permanently in the care of the state.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Because Germany and the EU are being criticised for lending Greece money and requiring as a condition of them doing so that they sort their government out, whereas China, Venuzuela and all the other countries who might ideologically oppose any form of austerity kept their hands in their pockets.
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I thought Germany and the EU were lending Greece money and requiring as a condition of them doing so that they sort their government out, in order to allow the Greeks to be able to repay other loans previously made by Germany and the EU (and the banks thereof) that did not have such conditions and which would cause systemic problems to the Euro if defaulted on?
 
Number_25 said:
Having a welfare state is vital, and I'm understanding of peoples willingness to fight for it.
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roydo said:
I dont think any sane person would disagree. But I think Bruce was referring to the importance of assisting those who have fallen into it through no fault of their own, adapting their abilities to re train or something.
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Indeed. I wouldn't really say that people are ever truly blameless for the choices they make, but still, if the state is to exist then it makes sense that they should try and help. A case in point might be professional drivers. There are around 300,000 licensed taxi drivers in the UK, probably a lot more Uber drivers, plus a few hundred thousand truck drivers and a good number of train and bus drivers. If we say there are a million people who make their living from driving cars we probably wouldn't be too far off.

Now we could be justifiably sceptical about the chances of technology progressing such that all of those folk won't be needed to drive their vehicle any more, but lets speculate and say that will happen. The prospect of this has been in the news for many years, and Google started their driverless car project ten years ago. So if you were prudent, whether 'you' refers to the driver themselves, their trade union or the government, you might have been putting plans in place so those 1 million people had the skills to do something else should we ever reach a point where their work is automated.

As far as I'm aware, nothing has been done whatsoever, by any of the three groups mentioned above. Are they blameless? You tell me.
 
tsubaki said:
I thought Germany and the EU were lending Greece money and requiring as a condition of them doing so that they sort their government out, in order to allow the Greeks to be able to repay other loans previously made by Germany and the EU (and the banks thereof) that did not have such conditions and which would cause systemic problems to the Euro if defaulted on?
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Quite possibly, I'm not here to claim that the process was managed as well as it might have been, merely to say that we're blaming those who stood up and lent money when no other government in the world was willing to do so, despite many perhaps being ideologically aligned with Greece. There appeared no solidarity with their plight and no offer of financial help so that they could carry on as they were.

Now, given that no one else came forward to help, what would things have been like had Germany not done so?
 
Bruce Wayne said:
No, perhaps it doesn't, but accepting that perhaps goes further towards remedying it than posing abstract theoretical questions. If we assume that change is a constant, which pretty much all of human history tells us it is, then the choices are more can people be helped to better adapt to changes, or do we accept that some people won't be able to adapt and we wrap them in the welfare state for the remainder of their days.
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I’m pretty fed up with these keep fit fanatics, the ones that require knee and hip replacements because of their full hardy nubtiness to run or peddle for many miles on concrete and tarmac, I’m also convinced they only do it in safe knowledge the welfare state will be there to wrap them up and replace their wrecked joints etc...
 
roydo said:
And delivery drivers ffs.
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Sure - it's a lot of people. Now you could speculate as to when it will happen, but the amount of money being thrown into R&D in the area suggests it will happen eventually, and it's therefore sensible to begin building up some kind of insurance policy. Except I don't really see any such effort being made, which seems incredibly risky to me.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Indeed. I wouldn't really say that people are ever truly blameless for the choices they make, but still, if the state is to exist then it makes sense that they should try and help. A case in point might be professional drivers. There are around 300,000 licensed taxi drivers in the UK, probably a lot more Uber drivers, plus a few hundred thousand truck drivers and a good number of train and bus drivers. If we say there are a million people who make their living from driving cars we probably wouldn't be too far off.

Now we could be justifiably sceptical about the chances of technology progressing such that all of those folk won't be needed to drive their vehicle any more, but lets speculate and say that will happen. The prospect of this has been in the news for many years, and Google started their driverless car project ten years ago. So if you were prudent, whether 'you' refers to the driver themselves, their trade union or the government, you might have been putting plans in place so those 1 million people had the skills to do something else should we ever reach a point where their work is automated.

As far as I'm aware, nothing has been done whatsoever, by any of the three groups mentioned above. Are they blameless? You tell me.
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We aren't talking about advances in technology with driverless cars though Bruce, we are talking about firms who think they can undercut other firms by cutting staff costs and by other legislative or tax changes so their product appears better.
 
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