The Greatest

[maddison]

Tyson lost every career defining fight he had, Ali was Ali, its not even a relevant question

That's a miss understanding of the type of fighter he was and the style he used. The Tevor Berbick fight was arguably a higher calibre fighter than he ever faced later on in his career, as was Spinks. He was actually the underdog in the Spinks fight and absolutely destroyed him

Tysons problems were always associated with fitness in his earlier days, not training etc. After then breaking off with Kevin Rooney, he lost that head movement. In the Bruno fight he was hit more times than he had been in any previous fight, and Bruno wasn't a high calibre opponent. That was pretty much the beginning of the end for Tyson.

If your style revolves around fast head movement, fast combinations, and sustained aggression; when you take mobility and fitness out of the equation you've lost your best tools. Tysons was never going to dominate for a long time due to his style, but his dominance was certainly cut short initially by his self destructive personality and later by his prison term.

 

[Pat's Van]

Yeah, apologies for my tone mate, and you may well be right. As I remember it, Frazier did say he'd finally forgiven Ali but then later said that he was lying and that he just couldn't forgive him. That said, there's little online to confirm my version of events and it's true that Ali went to Joe's funeral and spoke warmly of him. Still, Frazier lived out his later years in an apartment above the boxing gym in Philly where he'd honed his skills, an embittered and almost forgotten man. Such a shame for such a great man.

yeah really sad for Joe that, if he'd have had even half the PR abilities of Ali and his entourage he'd have swept aside all the Uncle Tom stuff by mentioning Ali's very white middle class corporate sponsorship that took a very young Cassius Clay off to the Olympics and gave him his start in professional boxing.

Joe and his manager (Eddie Futch?) however were simply about the boxing though, whereas Ali was about so much else.

 

[maddison]

That's what they said about Liston until Clay came bringing his utter arrogance and belief in his own invincibilty and took no notice of Listons Tyson-esque ( or should that be Tysons Liston-esque rep. )

That's what they said about Frazier.
Frazier just beat Ali after a long lay off and 1 or 2 warm up fights.

Until Foreman knocked Frazier literally off his feet.

That's what they said about Foreman....Until the re focused Ali roped the dope.

The young Clay would've been too fast for Tyson, the older Ali would've been too clever

He's called the greatest for a reason...and they can't ALL be wrong.

I wouldn't go near the Liston fight, there's still debate today regarding whether the fight was fixed and it certainly looks like it was.

Regarding Frazier, he always had the ability to hit Ali what he lacked was a range of punches that carried knockout power. He had his big hook, but didn't have the range of punches that Tyson had, was slower than Tyson, and carried less power. Frazier certainly gives an indication of how often Tyson would have laid gloves on Ali though, and Tyson was certainly more elusive than Frazier

There's controversy over the Foreman fight too, Foreman claiming he was counted out prematurely. Foreman would wing his punches, rather than using good technique. Ali trained in a specific way to condition himself for the Foreman fight, I can't see him lasting as long if he had stayed on the ropes with Tyson.

I still hold to my opinion that Tyson was as fas, if not faster than Ali.

Regarding 'they can't all be wrong', they're usually split 50/50 down the line. Ali doesn't win by the landslide you might think.

I'd say a prime Ali and a Prime Tyson, for me Tyson KO's him. Especially the Ali that faced Liston. As older fighters, Ali would have beaten Tyson.

 

[Pat's Van]

There are many fights that could define Ali, but for him and Frazier, the Manila fight defines them both. Two truly great fighters.

 

[TrixyStevens]

A beautiful boxer but Joe Louis would have kicked his ass

 

[TrixyStevens]

I wouldn't go near the Liston fight, there's still debate today regarding whether the fight was fixed and it certainly looks like it was.

Regarding Frazier, he always had the ability to hit Ali what he lacked was a range of punches that carried knockout power. He had his big hook, but didn't have the range of punches that Tyson had, was slower than Tyson, and carried less power. Frazier certainly gives an indication of how often Tyson would have laid gloves on Ali though, and Tyson was certainly more elusive than Frazier

There's controversy over the Foreman fight too, Foreman claiming he was counted out prematurely. Foreman would wing his punches, rather than using good technique. Ali trained in a specific way to condition himself for the Foreman fight, I can't see him lasting as long if he had stayed on the ropes with Tyson.

I still hold to my opinion that Tyson was as fas, if not faster than Ali.

Regarding 'they can't all be wrong', they're usually split 50/50 down the line. Ali doesn't win by the landslide you might think.

I'd say a prime Ali and a Prime Tyson, for me Tyson KO's him. Especially the Ali that faced Liston. As older fighters, Ali would have beaten Tyson.

The thing with Frazier was he didn't have a right hand, it all came from his lead left. Tyson could hit like a mule with either left or right. He would have caused Ali problems no question. I still think Ali would have had enough ring savvy to beat him though.

 

[maddison]

The thing with Frazier was he didn't have a right hand, it all came from his lead left. Tyson could hit like a mule with either left or right. He would have caused Ali problems no question. I still think Ali would have had enough ring savvy to beat him though.

That pretty much sums up why it would be a cracking fight! Ali vs Tyson would have been as exciting a match up as Durran vs Leonard was.

 

[Pat's Van]

Ali / Tyson is a debate that's raged on here more than once, there are so many variables that I find it difficult to make up my mind and you'd probably find posts from me on here from way back saying I'd choose Tyson.

But if you think about it logically it's Ali all day, he could overcome anything. And did.

 

[Josheverton92]

He fought Liston twice. The first one certainly wasn't fixed and he won that easy.

Every Tyson fan seems to maintain that Ali was in his Prime when Frazier beat him.

Absolutely gobsmacked how anyone could mention Tyson in the same Breath as Ali.

Someone mentioned Ali not being in the top 5 in that ring list. Well I'm the Ring list of top 80 fighters in the last 80 years, Ali was 3rd. Tyson was 72nd which is probably where he belongs.

 

[Wat Tyler]

Prime Foreman couldn't even knock out Ali, Tyson would have been outclassed by Ali, not a chance in my eyes

 

[maddison]

Ali / Tyson is a debate that's raged on here more than once, there are so many variables that I find it difficult to make up my mind and you'd probably find posts from me on here from way back saying I'd choose Tyson.

But if you think about it logically it's Tyson all day, he could destroy anything. And did.

Fixed Pat

 

[maddison]

I've not actually watched this, just came across it, might be worth a watch though:

[video=youtube;BsB86DapR4s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsB86DapR4s[/video]

 

[Pat's Van]

for all you sadists, here's some footage of two men punching each other in the face

[video=youtube;O7OkD0YnNPY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7OkD0YnNPY[/video]

 

[orly]

In terms of defensive technique, Floyd Mayweather must rank pretty highly

 

[maddison]

In terms of defensive technique, Floyd Mayweather must rank pretty highly

He's a phenom for sure, the sad part about boxing now is that the top guys dodge each other for years and it's all about the payday.

If you want to watch guys in their prime fighting today, without any dodging to build a record, you have to watch UFC. I don't want to turn this into a UFC vs Boxing debate though, but it's safe to say boxing has ensured it's own demise sadly.