The Greatest

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I am actually of the opinion that Mike Tyson is probably te most overrated sportsman of all time. His era was horrendous and when he couldn't bully, he was beaten. Fat old George Foreman won a World Title in the Tyson era. As for the Frazier comments, Ali was past his best by the time of the first fight. The 60's he was completely unbeatable. And besides that, Frazier was better than Tyson anyway.

But what separates Ali from Tyson more than ANYTHING else, is the Rumble in the Jungle. He was a long way past his best, against a younger stronger prime George Foreman (also vastly superior to Tyson), he shouldn't have had a chance, but he used his brain. He was crafty, clever and innovative. Tyson would have just lost his rag and give up like he was begging his corner to let him against Lewis in the 7th.
 
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It's subjective as the fight between Ali and Tyson didn't happen. Would have been a cracker but one I'd find difficult to predict. Ali always seemed to find a way so if I had to edge one way then probably him.

But the Tyson of the mid eighties was a force of nature. He'd been conditioned physically and mentally by D'Amato and his team in Catskills for years and destroyed anything put in front of him. He didn't just beat him he annihilated them and unified the titles at such an early age which was no easy thing and by knocking lids out for fun in early rounds.

Not just his hitting power but his range of punches and movement is unlike anything I've ever seen fro a heavyweight. Holmes might have been aging but he'd only been beaten for the first time by the opponent (twice like) before he fought Tyson and Tyson was the only man to ever knock him out.

Unfortunately for Tyson he developed a serious beak habit and lost his focus which left the latter part of his career as a mess (and the small matter of a few years jail time). It shouldn't fool anyone to how good he was for a long while. I just wish D'Amato stayed alive for a few years longer, even though he'd passed before Tyson won his first title.

I grew up in a time when Tyson was coming through so I'm biased towards him but even if you took even a slight passing interest in tapes of Ali you can't be so sure to back anyone against him, even Tyson.

Just makes me sad that the heavyweight division has been absolute tripe for so long. I hope I'm alive to see another boss era prevail at some point as well as an ace title winning Everton.
 
In my lifetime, no one (including Ali who is prob the GOAT) struck fear in their opponents like Tyson did in his prime. He was a monster to be feared. Lasting beyond round three was considered a success. Shame he faded so fast at such a young age...was very good for the sport to have that sort of destruction monster around to either love or hate.
 
I remember being in a pub debate a while back where the question was put who is or was a sporting superstar,ie the whole world would. without doubt know.it raged on for a few hours,some American lady (loose term !) was boiling mad because nobody would agree with her on Michael Jordan,backing her argument that his trainers sell around the world ,etc.soundly shot down by the locals in this Irish pub (about 20 of us).it raged on and names mentioned were Pele,Schumacker, louis, charlton,Phelps among others.
most arguments fell on whether said character would be known throughout Africa the far reaches of Asia.well to get to my point....Ali was the only one that is was agreed on that the whole world would know.so we decided as a sporting Icon there was no better.
 
degsy said:
Not what I remember him saying, I can see him with tears in his eyes talking about the shell of a man that Ali became
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You've remembered strangely, then. It's true that Frazier seemed to make a few grudgingly conciliatory comments about Ali in his later years but then he retracted them and admitted that he still hadn't forgiven him. And like I said, who can blame him. Ali likened Frazier to a gorilla. If Ali had been white, that would have been the end of him. As it was, he got away with a terrible slur against a good, honest fighter.

(The idea of Frazier being an Uncle Tom stuck to Smokin' Joe like dogdirt for much of the rest of his career, as well, thanks to Ali's comments. Frazier's own community begain to eye him suspiciously.)
 
Clint Planet said:
You've remembered strangely, then. It's true that Frazier seemed to make a few grudgingly conciliatory comments about Ali in his later years but then he retracted them and admitted that he still hadn't forgiven him. And like I said, who can blame him. Ali likened Frazier to a gorilla. If Ali had been white, that would have been the end of him. As it was, he got away with a terrible slur against a good, honest fighter.

(The idea of Frazier being an Uncle Tom stuck to Smokin' Joe like dogdirt for much of the rest of his career, as well, thanks to Ali's comments. Frazier's own community begain to eye him suspiciously.)
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Couldn't agree more just a like quote of joe's when Ali light the Olympic torch tells you exactly how he felt about it

"Joe Frazier continues to take punches at Muhammad Ali, his nemesis for 25 years, and on Tuesday, it wasn't pretty.

Frazier, who won an Olympic gold medal in 1964, even suggested that God was punishing Ali by making him suffer from Parkinson's syndrome, which has left the former three-time heavyweight champion of the world walking haltingly and talking only in a mumble.

"I think it was the hand of the Lord that touched him to slow him down, to show him no man can be THE. You can be the, but not THE," Frazier said to reporters at the boxing venue.

Frazier, in town to promote his autobiography and to see U.S. Olympian Terrance Cauthan advance to clinch a medal in the semifinals.

Frazier went through a litany of complaints about Ali, including that he was not a good representative for boxing because some people would associate his disease with boxing.

"It would have been a good thing if he had lit the torch and fallen in," Frazier said. "If I had the chance, I would have pushed him in."

"It was a slap in the face to boxing" to have Ali light the torch, Frazier said. "There are so many men who deserve it so much more. This butterfly hasn't done that much for the sport.

"He was a draft dodger. He didn't like his white brothers. He didn't like his black brothers. ".
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There are literally dozens more quotes , Frazier never forgave Ali for those quotes particularly after the help he felt he gave Ali during his difficult times. It makes a nice story to say they became friends but as far as I'm aware there was no reconciliation. As for the point about Ali the bloke was a wonderful fighter and an icon , I've got an original of that everton picture in mine but he's a,so had some pretty horrific racist quotes airbrushed from his history.

As for the greatest boxer Ali is certainly up there and and a wonderful fighter but he certainly has the best PR probably Sugar Ray Robinson for me personally . If i remember rightly I think that when Ring magazine did a top 100 boxers of all time Ali didn't even make the top 5 , he was certainly below Robinson and Harry Greb. If you read boxing historians & writers it's pretty common to see the bloke ranked around the top 5 rather than "The Greatest".
 
Clint Planet said:
You've remembered strangely then. It's true that Frazier seemed to make a few grudgingly conciliatory comments about Ali in his later years but then he retracted them and admitted that he still hadn't forgiven him. And like I said, who can blame him. Ali likened Frazier to a gorilla. If Ali had been white, that would have been the end of him. As it was, he got away with a terrible slur against a good, honest fighter.

(The idea of Frazier being an Uncle Tom stuck to Smokin' Joe like dogdirt for much of the rest of his career, as well, thanks to Ali's comments. Frazier's own community begain to eye him suspiciously.)
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i) In the best seasonal Panto tradition...Oh no I didn't... I know what I saw, the alzheimers hasn't kicked in yet, soon maybe, but not today

If I had the skills and Inclination I would dig up the clip and post a link.

But like other things there are some people you can't tell and some you don't have to tell

Seems we shall differ on this.

ii) I Frazier later changed / retracted / ammended his views that's his decision so fair play to him.
 
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degsy said:
i) In the best seasonal Panto tradition...Oh no I didn't... I know what I saw, the alzheimers hasn't kicked in yet, soon maybe, but not today

If I had the skills and Inclination I would dig up the clip and post a link.

But like other things there are some people you can't tell and some you don't have to tell

Seems we shall differ on this.

ii) I Frazier later changed / retracted / ammended his views that's his decision so fair play to him.
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In One of the last interviews Frazier gave he was still pretty strong in his opinions on Ali mate , he may well have given a different account but I've never heard nor read of him being anything other than pretty 'harsh' towards Ali.

I needed to ask Frazier two questions. I told him that. I said an inspiring part of sports is what we are able to demand from ourselves, yet the in my heart I know the most inspiring part of sports is the greatness opponents are able to demand of each other.

And then I asked Joe my two questions.

"Do you regret saying what you did about Muhammad Ali [at the Atlanta Olympics]?

"A lot of people said Ali had been nice to you privately and all his trash-talking was just show. Is that true?"

Joe Frazier smiled that smile of his, and the man with the most vicious of left hooks knocked out two questions with one word.

"Nope."

Sweat still pouring from him, Joe inhaled more water.

``We weren't animals. We were human beings,'' Frazier said. ``He called me a gorilla. An Uncle Tom. Uncle Tom? I grew up so poor and so black in South Carolina, even the water we drank was colored. The only guy I 'tommed' for was him, giving in to him. God gave him so many gifts. Fast. Pretty. Smart. Strong. He didn't have to do what he did.

``I was righteous. I was fair. The only time I looked down on a man, I was bending down to pick him up."

As we talked for 20 minutes, he clearly wasn't ready to let the hate go.
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degsy said:
i) In the best seasonal Panto tradition...Oh no I didn't... I know what I saw, the alzheimers hasn't kicked in yet, soon maybe, but not today

If I had the skills and Inclination I would dig up the clip and post a link.

But like other things there are some people you can't tell and some you don't have to tell

Seems we shall differ on this.

ii) I Frazier later changed / retracted / ammended his views that's his decision so fair play to him.
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Yeah, apologies for my tone mate, and you may well be right. As I remember it, Frazier did say he'd finally forgiven Ali but then later said that he was lying and that he just couldn't forgive him. That said, there's little online to confirm my version of events and it's true that Ali went to Joe's funeral and spoke warmly of him. Still, Frazier lived out his later years in an apartment above the boxing gym in Philly where he'd honed his skills, an embittered and almost forgotten man. Such a shame for such a great man.
 
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