The Derby: Moyes v other Everton managers

[davek]

It doesn't make for comforting reading, I'm afraid. Going back to before the Second World War, Moyes has one of the worst (the worst?) head-to-head records against Liverpool.

Leaving the caretaker managers out (and the single Derby duffer that was Mike Walker) and John Carey (who never had to face Liverpool as they were in Division Two), Moyes has the worst record apart from Billy Bingham who never won one in seven attempts.

The stats - 1939-2010
(win percentage in brackets)


Theo Kelly
W3 D4 L4 (27%)

Cliff Britton
W1 D3 L2 (16%)

Harry Catterick
W7 D7 L9 (30%)

Billy Bingham
W0 D4 L3 (zero)

Gordon Lee
W2 D5 L3 (20%)

Howard Kendall I,II, & III
W6 D5 L9 (30%)

Colin Harvey
W1 D2 L4 (14%)

Joe Royle
W2 D3 L0 (40%)

Walter Smith
W1 D2 L4 (14%)

David Moyes
W2 D4 L10 (8%)

Probaby the most damning thing from that lot is his record against fellow longest serving managers - Catterick and Kendall. They are all men who had lots of time in the job to get the feel of a fixture like this and only Moyes has failed to rise to the occasion.

I suppose you might argue that Moyes deals in a different climate than his predecessors - that Liverpool are better off financially and, therefore, you now expect an Everton manager to have a worse record. But I think that point is blunted when you look at the spell Big Joe had in charge in the mid 90s when they had the riches coming on stream and we were struggling to stay with them financially. Joe was undefeated in five matches. Maybe our continued decline in investment terms and their riches has meant that Joe's feat coldn't be matched today. Maybe, but I think 2 wins in 16 matches is just rank to be honest.

It really does surprise me too. Moyes comes from the culture of the Old Firm and knows only too well the importance of fixtures like this. He's not a Mike Walker who shrugs his shoulders and says 'oh well, it's just another game'. I think he was desperate to win these games early in his tenure...now I'm beginning to wonder if he doesn't just ring them on the calender and think 'another top four, billionaire invested in side we can be forgiven for struggling against'.

 

[sapper]

It doesn't make for comforting reading, I'm afraid. Going back to before the Second World War, Moyes has one of the worst (the worst?) head-to-head records against Liverpool.

Leaving the caretaker managers out (and the single Derby duffer that was Mike Walker) and John Carey (who never had to face Liverpool as they were in Division Two), Moyes has the worst record apart from Billy Bingham who never won one in seven attempts.

The stats - 1939-2010
(win percentage in brackets)


Theo Kelly
W3 D4 L4 (27%)

Cliff Britton
W1 D3 L2 (16%)

Harry Catterick
W7 D7 L9 (30%)

Billy Bingham
W0 D4 L3 (zero)

Gordon Lee
W2 D5 L3 (20%)

Howard Kendall I,II, & III
W6 D5 L9 (30%)

Colin Harvey
W1 D2 L4 (14%)

Joe Royle
W2 D3 L0 (40%)

Walter Smith
W1 D2 L4 (14%)

David Moyes
W2 D4 L10 (8%)

Probaby the most damning thing from that lot is his record against fellow longest serving managers - Catterick and Kendall. They are all men who had lots of time in the job to get the feel of a fixture like this and only Moyes has failed to rise to the occasion.

I suppose you might argue that Moyes deals in a different climate than his predecessors - that Liverpool are better off financially and, therefore, you now expect an Everton manager to have a worse record. But I think that point is blunted when you look at the spell Big Joe had in charge in the mid 90s when they had the riches coming on stream and we were struggling to stay with them financially. Joe was undefeated in five matches. Maybe our continued decline in investment terms and their riches has meant that Joe's feat coldn't be matched today. Maybe, but I think 2 wins in 16 matches is just rank to be honest.

It really does surprise me too. Moyes comes from the culture of the Old Firm and knows only too well the importance of fixtures like this. He's not a Mike Walker who shrugs his shoulders and says 'oh well, it's just another game'. I think he was desperate to win these games early in his tenure...now I'm beginning to wonder if he doesn't just ring them on the calender and think 'another top four, billionaire invested in side we can be forgiven for struggling against'.

Spot on but it is not only his record v Liverpool but his record against all the top teams [ and cups ] which shows a lack off tactical knowledge. the second half performance by team & david moyes was inept and embarassing.

 

[Number_25]

Woah, think of them 3 victories...

The Super Lee Derby (04/05)
Andrew Johnson running the show (06/07)
The Dan Gosling FA Cup Quater Final Strike and the ITV fiasco (08/09)

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Of course it would be nice to put one over Liverpool on a regular basis but lets have a bit of perspective here. You guys make it sound like you'd rather beat Liverpool and be involved in relegation scraps than have a poor record and qualify for Europe year in year out.

 

[davek]

Of course it would be nice to put one over Liverpool on a regular basis but lets have a bit of perspective here. You guys make it sound like you'd rather beat Liverpool and be involved in relegation scraps than have a poor record and qualify for Europe year in year out.

I dont understand that. Why is it a zero-sum game? Cant we qualify for Europe and have a respectable Derby record?

Puzzling comment, tbh.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Sure, but I'd rather have the good league position than a good derby record. There are a whole lot of knee jerk reactions laying into Moyes and I don't think it's neccessary.

 

[bigblueboy]

Sure, but I'd rather have the good league position than a good derby record. There are a whole lot of knee jerk reactions laying into Moyes and I don't think it's neccessary.

speech bruce lad........

 

[Lao]

We will never break into the top four if we can't take points off them. At present we are better than the RS and should have beaten them in November let alone whatever happened yesterday.

We seem to always set up to attempt to cancel these sides out and avoid defeat rather than playing our own game. We need to start taking risks and attack them.

Moyes shows the 'big four' too much respect.

 

[davek]

Sure, but I'd rather have the good league position than a good derby record. There are a whole lot of knee jerk reactions laying into Moyes and I don't think it's neccessary.

I think you have top take the brickbats with the bouquets. It's not being kneejerk to compare and contrast past managerial performances with the incumbent manager's record. And it's not a backdoor way of arguing for a new manager either.

Derbies are critical games in the season, and they cant be dismissed as local skirmishes no more important than losing out consistently to Chelsea or United. They can have real potency in affecting how the rest of the season pans out (ask any Liverpool fan now emboldened about taking 4th spot). It's a terrible record and it's reasonable to highlight it.

 

[kenada_blue]

Sure, but I'd rather have the good league position than a good derby record. There are a whole lot of knee jerk reactions laying into Moyes and I don't think it's neccessary.

Villa seem to do alright though. They've turned over united, arsenal and Liverpool this season and are in the running for 4th for the 2nd season running.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We will never break into the top four if we can't take points off them. At present we are better than the RS and should have beaten them in November let alone whatever happened yesterday.

We seem to always set up to attempt to cancel these sides out and avoid defeat rather than playing our own game. We need to start taking risks and attack them.

Moyes shows the 'big four' too much respect.

2008 - 5 points
2007 - 1 point
2006 - 9 points
2005 - 5 points
2004 - 6 points
2003 - 2 points

That's the record against the big four in each of Moyes' full seasons with us.

For me though our performances against them have been much improved and aren't always shown by the stats. For instance I would argue that we played better in the defeat at Goodison earlier in the year than we did in the Carsley win, and arguably even the AJ win, yet got nothing from the game.

Playing regularly in Europe has undoubtably helped that but I don't think we should draw too much from yesterday. Yes we struggled to create anything but Liverpool are very good at defending a lead. History has shown that, especially in Europe and has earned them many an undeserved win. Better teams than us have failed to break them down. It's gutting that we missed the opportunity but our time will come again.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Villa seem to do alright though. They've turned over united, arsenal and Liverpool this season and are in the running for 4th for the 2nd season running.

And we have a decent record against Villa. It happens. My point is not to look at things in isolation. For instance we nearly always lose at Craven Cottage (last years win being the only time we've not been beaten there in PL history) but no one will suggest Fulham are better than us.

 

[kenada_blue]

And we have a decent record against Villa. It happens. My point is not to look at things in isolation. For instance we nearly always lose at Craven Cottage (last years win being the only time we've not been beaten there in PL history) but no one will suggest Fulham are better than us.

I think the overall point is that if were supposed to be competing we should be taking games we have the advantage over against the top sides.

We've basically got a fully fit squad now so we should be compteing in the top games if were good enough

 

[davek]

And we have a decent record against Villa. It happens. My point is not to look at things in isolation. For instance we nearly always lose at Craven Cottage (last years win being the only time we've not been beaten there in PL history) but no one will suggest Fulham are better than us.

I gave you 70 years of context in the OP and you dismissed it as kneejerk.

Ho hum.

 

[davek]

I think the overall point is that if were supposed to be competing we should be taking games we have the advantage over against the top sides.

We've basically got a fully fit squad now so we should be compteing in the top games if were good enough

I think the elephant in the drawing room here is this: we have a great first team and very handy bench, but the manager - the man who assembled the squad - isn't able to maximize the potential because he's inflexible/slow on the uptake.

It's something to debate, actually, but you'd just get accused of kneejerkism and wanting to run the manager out of town.