The Dead Thread

[tommye]

Hope somebody else dies soon so that thread can get back on topic...

 

[PhilM]

I’m a huge believer innocent until proven guilty but by the same token you do seem slightly to be dancing on the head of a pin . In that you firmly believe in it unless there is ‘overwhelming’ evidence and you seem happy , yourself, to decide when and where that particular caveat applies.

This. People aren't saying she's guilty @Billysgingham. and if they are then they're incorrect; on the other hand, I feel uneasy with not having a trial.

Innocent until proven guilty is a foundation of our unwritten constitution, yet it would be naive to conveniently ignore that she was facing charges before her death.

The whole Hitler argument was to highlight that the whole binary perspective has many flaws because while there is evidence it's never been in front of a court.

People can't have it both ways and be selective where the standard is applied, and it is just if people do question her legacy - to an extent.

 

[Billysgingham.]

Hope somebody else dies soon so that thread can get back on topic...

This. People aren't saying she's guilty @Billysgingham. and if they are then they're incorrect; on the other hand, I feel uneasy with people declaring her 'innocent'.

Innocent until proven guilty is a foundation of our unwritten constitution, yet it would be naive to conveniently ignore that she was facing charges before her death.

The whole Hitler argument was to highlight that the whole binary perspective has many flaws because while there is evidence it's never been in front of a court.

People can't have it both ways and it is just if people do question her legacy, to an extent.

How many people do you know mate that faced charges and walked away innocent or not guilty whichever, because I know a few.Im not on a crusade here just feel it is wrong to say she done something that is not proven.

 

[Billysgingham.]

Sorry @tommye I didnt mean to tag you then.

 

[Toast]

How many people do you know mate that faced charges and walked away innocent or not guilty whichever, because I know a few.Im not on a crusade here just feel it is wrong to say she done something that is not proven.

I've been in court and been found not guilty / not proven, when I just might have been like.

 

[tommye]

How many people do you know mate that faced charges and walked away innocent or not guilty whichever, because I know a few.Im not on a crusade here just feel it is wrong to say she done something that is not proven.

Why you quoting me?

I just want someone else to die so everyone can cast judgement on them too

 

[tommye]

Sorry @tommye I didnt mean to tag you then.

No worries tiger xx

 

[Billysgingham.]

I've been in court and been found not guilty / not proven, when I just might have been like.

That's the way the law flies.

 

[PhilM]

How many people do you know mate that faced charges and walked away innocent or not guilty whichever, because I know a few.Im not on a crusade here just feel it is wrong to say she done something that is not proven.

Professionally, I know of countless example and I've never said she is guilty or advocated so. However, there is a huge difference between all of the below:

• Facing a trial and being found not guilty by a JP or a jury,
• Facing a trial and being acquitted,
• Never being charged,

AND

• Facing charges and dying before trial (her circumstances).

Not to sound insensitive, but your example above is completely different. My whole point is that her circumstances are quite different, and as such deserve scrutiny.

Add to that, this scrutiny and the way the that the law is observed or analysed has to be consistent for everyone and anyone otherwise we're in a nasty position.

If one person is innocent without facing trial and this can't be suspect to discussion, it must be applied to all. Ultimately, she is legally innocent as are others.

 

[Billysgingham.]

Professionally, I know of countless example and I've never said she is guilty or advocated so. However, there is a huge difference between all of the below:

• Facing a trial and being found not guilty by a JP or a jury,
• Facing a trial and being acquitted,
• Never being charged,

AND

• Facing charges and dying before trial (her circumstances).

Not to sound sensitive, but your example above is completely different. My whole point is that her circumstances are quite different, and as such deserve scrutiny.

Add to that, this scrutiny and the way the that the law is observed or analyse has to be consistent for everyone and anyone.

If one person is innocent without facing trial and this can't be suspect to discussion, it must be applied to all.

Of course it can.I said it posts back.Everybody has different views on flack no one has on saville and the like.

 

[PhilM]

Of course it can.I said it posts back.Everybody has different views on flack no one has on saville and the like.

Legally, he is innocent because he was never tried. Do I suspect that if he faced trial he'd be found guilty? Definitely, when you consider the evidence against him.

Does he deserve to rot? Yes. With regards to flack, she is equally innocent although on the face of it the evidence doesn't late great, but not to the same extent.

 

[Billysgingham.]

Legally, he is innocent because he was never tried. Do I suspect that if he faced trial he'd be found guilty? Definitely, when you consider the evidence against him.

Does he deserve to rot? Yes. With regards to flack, she is equally innocent although on the face of it the evidence doesn't late great, but not to the same extent.

That is what I said from the start mate, if it had got to court she probably would of been found guilty, but my point was it never, and so give her the benefit of doubt.But racking her up against hitler and the like was unnerving for me.

 

[navidson]

Mad how the CPS is getting flak (!) over this - What were they supposed to do? Drop the case because the boyfriend no longer wanted to press charges?

Unfortunately the law doesn't work like that - What would the public reaction be if the case was dropped, they broke up as a couple and in a few years she successfully managed to murder her new boyfriend? What would we wring our hands over then?

 

[tommytowne]

Where are the campaigners who persuaded CPS/Police to continue with proceedings when the victim withdraws their allegations of assault? Strangely quiet at present saying the victim in this case wanted charges dropped.
I'm talking primarily about domestic violence admittedly when a female is the complainant.
Double standards at work?
Anyway, still deeply tragic this whole episode.

 

[PhilM]

That is what I said from the start mate, if it had got to court she probably would of been found guilty, but my point was it never, and so give her the benefit of doubt.But racking her up against hitler and the like was unnerving for me.

Why? I am trying to stress that people must be treated equally and be provided the same rights. Remove the name: was X given the chance to a trial?

Was X found guilty in a court of law? Choosing where the law applies and for who, like @Harryflashman mentioned, is a far more worrying issue for me.

You give everyone the same benefit of the doubt or you don't. My point is that she is innocent, but she should face the same scrutiny as everyone else under the law.

If you're happy to be selective where your rationale applies and for who, would it be okay to treat men differently? Race? I'm not being argumentative, just curious.