Current Affairs The Conservative Party

[Blue 1]

Won't be a popular view, but gesture/identity politics is a double-edged sword that is by its' nature divisive.

Taking the knee needs to stop. I knew the reaction would be what it was last night because you'd seen months and months of unopposed gesture politics from the players creating ever greater division.

Stop fuelling extremism. It's taking the lowest hanging fruit instead of doing anything serious about the underlying issues. It's not creating a conversation; it is facilitating angst, pitting together people with moderate views with those of extremes and making no distinction.

Neville this morning for example with his comments on booing the knee. Just quite simply incorrect; a lazy, ill-judged correlation.

Annoyingly, Priti Patel was right. It was gesture politics, people had a right to reject it, it didn't make them automatically racists. Neville has failed to make that distinction.

The reaction last night would've happened whether England's players took a knee or not. The reason they do it is to highlight the problem of the abuse they face so regularly.

This post seems awfully like victim blaming, Tubey.

 

[Tubey]

The reaction last night would've happened whether England's players took a knee or not. The reason they do it is to highlight the problem.

This post seems awfully like victim blaming, Tubey.

I'm not trying to justify the racism; I'm saying it forces people to extremes to make it more likely.

I simply see the situation with more nuance. I'm not victim blaming; rather I'm saying what they've been doing is counter-productive to their aim in my view. Or to be more specific, I think it's a gesture that had its' place in highlighting an issue once upon a Kaepernick, but has now become a gesture that is the issue.

Or the TLDR version - why do something that doesn't achieve what you want it to, and indeed makes things worse?

 

[Tubey]

Why is taking the knee extreme? Only statement missing from that post is "all lives matter".
White privelege eh?

Because it creates extremism. It's a response to the extreme right, and as such fuels it.

 

[dead_soft]

Won't be a popular view, but gesture/identity politics is a double-edged sword that is by its' nature divisive.

Taking the knee needs to stop. I knew the reaction would be what it was last night because you'd seen months and months of unopposed gesture politics from the players creating ever greater division.

Stop fuelling extremism. It's taking the lowest hanging fruit instead of doing anything serious about the underlying issues. It's not creating a conversation; it is facilitating angst, pitting together people with moderate views with those of extremes and making no distinction.

Neville this morning for example with his comments on booing the knee. Just quite simply incorrect; a lazy, ill-judged correlation.

Annoyingly, Priti Patel was right. It was gesture politics, people had a right to reject it, it didn't make them automatically racists. Neville has failed to make that distinction.

This was even more predictable than England losing on penalties and the black players being racially abused.

 

[Tubey]

This was even more predictable than England losing on penalties and the black players being racially abused.

Let me ask you - what's the end game with that gesture?

As in what would count as a win by doing it?

 

[dead_soft]

Because it creates extremism. It's a response to the extreme right, and as such fuels it.

Genuinely baffled by this. Logic created just so you can cling on to your desperate belief that taking the knee is an extreme gesture

 

[dead_soft]

Let me ask you - what's the end game with that gesture?

As in what would count as a win by doing it?

The gesture by footballers, as has been REPEATEDLY explained, is to say that bigotry is noticed and won't be ignored. Doesn't have to have an 'end game'.

 

[Tubey]

The gesture by footballers, as has been REPEATEDLY explained, is to say that bigotry is noticed and won't be ignored. Doesn't have to have an 'end game'.

Yes it does. Otherwise it's pointless. You're saying it "won't be ignored" - OK, so what will be done about it? Will you take the knee even longer or something?

No, it has no end game, it is merely divisive and therefore pointless given the stated aim. Indeed, it's worse than pointless - it's counter-productive.

The battle against racism should be aiming to highlight commonality, not difference, as in hammer home how skin colour is purely superficial and a stupid metric to judge anyone by. Taking the knee does none of that - indeed it does the exact opposite, whilst being in bed as a gesture with a political movement.

 

[dead_soft]

Yes it does. Otherwise it's pointless. You're saying it "won't be ignored" - OK, so what will be done about it? Will you take the knee even longer or something?

No, it has no end game, it is merely divisive and therefore pointless given the stated aim. Indeed, it's worse than pointless - it's counter-productive.

The battle against racism should be aiming to highlight commonality, not difference, as in hammer home how skin colour is purely superficial and a stupid metric to judge anyone by. Taking the knee does none of that - indeed it does the exact opposite, whilst being in bed as a gesture with a political movement.

No it doesn't need an end game. They can do whatever they want. Awareness is a good thing to raise and it clearly has. But also, it doesn't matter. If footballers make a gesture that does nothing but they like it then cool, they can do that. Not them who are causing division or racism. It's the racists. People who have said this is victim blaming are right.

It is spectacular nonsense to suggest football players kneeling before a game is the problem.

 

[Tubey]

No it doesn't need an end game. They can do whatever they want. Awareness is a good thing to raise and it clearly has. But also, it doesn't matter. If footballers make a gesture that does nothing but they like it then cool, they can do that. Not them who are causing division or racism. It's the racists. People who have said this is victim blaming are right.

It is spectacular nonsense to suggest football players kneeling before a game is the problem.

So you think 100% of people who are booing or have a problem with taking the knee are racists then?

 

[dead_soft]

So you think 100% of people who are booing or have a problem with taking the knee are racists then?

I'm not playing that silly game but the nonsense about it being a Marxist gesture and a divisive political gesture is one that has been promoted and seeded by racists and bigots who wish for no change whilst a lot of people were very eager to lap it up.

 

[Tubey]

I'm not playing that silly game but the nonsense about it being a Marxist gesture and a divisive political gesture is one that has been promoted and seeded by racists and bigots who wish for no change whilst a lot of people were very eager to lap it up.

I asked because you said the gesture wasn't creating division. So if it isn't, everyone supporting it isn't a racist, and everyone against it is a racist.

Is that what you think?

 

[dead_soft]

I asked because you said the gesture wasn't creating division. So if it isn't, everyone supporting it isn't a racist, and everyone against it is a racist.

Is that what you think?

What a strange argument. You know you're not actively engaging with the crux of this, instead trying to wrap it up in rhetoric, because you're clinging on to your belief so desperately.

It is footballer kneeling for a few seconds before a match. It is not divisive unless groups of people wish it to be. I am not getting in to what each individual thinks. You could find Asian people standing as BNP councillors. Doesn't mean to say the BNP weren't anti-Asian.

 

[Tubey]

What a strange argument. You know you're not actively engaging with the crux of this, instead trying to wrap it up in rhetoric, because you're clinging on to your belief so desperately.

It is footballer kneeling for a few seconds before a match. It is not divisive unless groups of people wish it to be. I am not getting in to what each individual thinks. You could find Asian people standing as BNP councillors. Doesn't mean to say the BNP weren't anti-Asian.

No, it is the crux of it. Thousands of people in football grounds across the country, many many more at home, all against the knee, and you're saying it isn't divisive, or - if it is - it's because they're all racists.

You won't answer properly because you know it murders the point you made. Of course taking the knee is divisive, and it's divisive to people other than just racists. And as such, it doesn't achieve what it sets out to achieve, and is indeed counter-productive. It creates more societal division. It proactively makes things worse.

 

[dead_soft]

No, it is the crux of it. Thousands of people in football grounds across the country, many many more at home, all against the knee, and you're saying it isn't divisive, or - if it is - it's because they're all racists.

You won't answer properly because you know it murders the point you made. Of course taking the knee is divisive, and it's divisive to people other than just racists. And as such, it doesn't achieve what it sets out to achieve, and is indeed counter-productive. It creates more societal division. It proactively makes things worse.

It doesn't murder the point at all and nonsense to suggest that it is. I just won't play a stupid game of 'ah but, look, here is one non-racist and you said 100% of the people are racist'.

It is not counter-productive. If people are extra racist or now racist because some footballers took the knee then, I'm sorry to say this, they may already have been racists. In fact, seems pretty productive if racists are only just outing themselves because of this.

Or is this one of those things where sensible centrists are being torn as to who to side with?