Current Affairs The Conservative Party

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I think that the key word here is "someone".

If "someone" told you online to jump in front of a bus or off a cliff...is it 'reasonable' to charge a random stranger with that in comparison to "someone" who has personal or professional 'sway' and influence over you and is capable of making you do such a thing?

I would suggest legally @jazzy would have a decent legal opinion on this?
Delighted to say that I no longer practice but the reference that @Harryflashman has made is to a real and very recent case in this country Zat ( I appreciate that you don't live in the UK )

It involved the wife of a Tory local councillor making the highly inflammatory phrase that Harry detailed and has resulted in a jail term of ( I think ) 2 years. The prosecution did not have to prove that anyone was moved to action because of her words.

It is a reminder to us all that we need to be very careful with what we say and write.
 
Delighted to say that I no longer practice but the reference that @Harryflashman has made is to a real and very recent case in this country Zat ( I appreciate that you don't live in the UK )

It involved the wife of a Tory local councillor making the highly inflammatory phrase that Harry detailed and has resulted in a jail term of ( I think ) 2 years. The prosecution did not have to prove that anyone was moved to action because of her words.

It is a reminder to us all that we need to be very careful with what we say and write.

Thanks Jazzy, yes i also read the article.

As I mentioned in my previous post, is it not strange that as you wrote;

..."The prosecution did not have to prove that anyone was moved to action because of her words"...

this can now open up a massive can of worms. Is it purely based upon race, every race? Is this now going to be assessed fairly through millions of posts online or only recent online posts?

I am certain that there would be plenty of negative and harmful messages across multiple groups of people (we saw the anti-black england footballer racist messages online)...where is this going to start and end?

Or is this simply a case of her being a sacrificial lamb to deter others?


Edit was her being the wife of a tory councillor also partly the reason for a custodial sentence?

It seems very heavy handed to me.
 
Thanks Jazzy, yes i also read the article.

As I mentioned in my previous post, is it not strange that as you wrote;

..."The prosecution did not have to prove that anyone was moved to action because of her words"...

this can now open up a massive can of worms. Is it purely based upon race, every race? Is this now going to be assessed fairly through millions of posts online or only recent online posts?

I am certain that there would be plenty of negative and harmful messages across multiple groups of people (we saw the anti-black england footballer racist messages online)...where is this going to start and end?

Or is this simply a case of her being a sacrificial lamb to deter others?


Edit was her being the wife of a tory councillor also partly the reason for a custodial sentence?

It seems very heavy handed to me.
Again Iif I post that I think you’re an absolute belter that if basically just an online post , if this copper you mentioned posts anti-white rhetoric that again is another post but if you that copper suggest that you should be murdered and someone than attempts to murder you can we see these are three totally different matters . I can’t imagine loads of people are posting hate and encouraging violence that is subsequently carried out , if they are then they can’t moan if they’re arrested surely ? They’re inciting violence , particularly in the current cases racial violence . Doing that will get you nicked , it’s not a surprise to me .

You also don’t get a heavier sentence in uk because your spouse sits as a councillor , you can’t think that surely ?
 
Thanks Jazzy, yes i also read the article.

As I mentioned in my previous post, is it not strange that as you wrote;

..."The prosecution did not have to prove that anyone was moved to action because of her words"...

this can now open up a massive can of worms. Is it purely based upon race, every race? Is this now going to be assessed fairly through millions of posts online or only recent online posts?

I am certain that there would be plenty of negative and harmful messages across multiple groups of people (we saw the anti-black england footballer racist messages online)...where is this going to start and end?

Or is this simply a case of her being a sacrificial lamb to deter others?


Edit was her being the wife of a tory councillor also partly the reason for a custodial sentence?

It seems very heavy handed to me.
I think you have to consider the context. We were experiencing regular riots and unrest following the tragedy at Southport.

There was a determination of the new Government to crack down on it and send a message ( even though as a lawyer I was taught that the "seperation of the powers " between government , legislature and the judiciary is sacrosanct) and I suspect that levers were pulled because we saw justice dispensed at a speed that I've never witnessed when I was in the profession.

Do I think that her husband being a Tory councillor made any difference ? No, in all honesty I don't.

Will we now see a trawl through SM to pick up on such comments ? Probably not but I suspect that the police will certainly be expected to act upon any complaints of similar comments.
 
And? Seriously, and? It's one of the most perverse and obtuse perceptions I hear regularly. Firstly, you have to consider the message, its context and severity.

If you genuinely were threatening to kill someone, would it be less severe if you sent them a message via Facebook than ringing them up? Answers on a postcard.

And I'll state again, the context of the message is the big difference here and the example you gave about posts in Asia: racism online is still racism.
You’re wasting your breath on the vermin mate
 
I think you have to consider the context. We were experiencing regular riots and unrest following the tragedy at Southport.

There was a determination of the new Government to crack down on it and send a message ( even though as a lawyer I was taught that the "seperation of the powers " between government , legislature and the judiciary is sacrosanct) and I suspect that levers were pulled because we saw justice dispensed at a speed that I've never witnessed when I was in the profession.

Do I think that her husband being a Tory councillor made any difference ? No, in all honesty I don't.

Will we now see a trawl through SM to pick up on such comments ? Probably not but I suspect that the police will certainly be expected to act upon any complaints of similar comments.

Thats fairly similar to what I thought...which as i was inferring a few posts ago --would mean to have a level playing field there would need to be a 'force' setup to solely go through all online posts (many of which would be deleted) and it doesnt seem 'reasonable' that this individual has been 'singled out'.

It seems one sided which is the issue i take with it and if it is one sided then the sentence is harsh.

Probably just don't publicly talk about committing violent crimes then, including asking others to commit mass murder, and you'll probably be okay. Can't say it's something I've ever worried about.


Are you saying @peteblue cant joke about nuking Iran any more?
 
Interesting that we’ve discussed (and generally agreed on) the limits of freedom of speech, the harm principle, incitement etc since Mill wrote about it in the 18th century.

Social media is the variable which has changed.

Mill, in his example of calling corn dealers “starvers of the poor” argued that it was legitimate to say this in print, in the press, but not legitimate to say this to an angry mob outside the corn dealers’ house.

The question we’re wrestling with, is does social media operate as a de facto print publishing house, or a proxy “town square”.

Given the owners of Twitter describe it as the ‘digital town square’, and use that definition to argue for freedom of speech, it seems to me it remains subject to Mill’s harm principles.

On this basis, this Tory councillor was directly inciting violence, to an angry mob, in the digital town square.

There could maybe be some argument about the proximity of this mob. Did the councillor know that the mob was outside the hotel when she incited them? She certainly knew there were riots happening when she posted (think there’d already been one hotel attempted to be set on fire), which would seem to be important. Fact that she pled guilty indicates her lawyer thought she’d met the legal bar for incitement.

Is interesting stuff (to me, at least), as the conversation is as much about the function and role of social media, as it is about what can and can’t be said.
 
I think you have to consider the context. We were experiencing regular riots and unrest following the tragedy at Southport.

There was a determination of the new Government to crack down on it and send a message ( even though as a lawyer I was taught that the "seperation of the powers " between government , legislature and the judiciary is sacrosanct) and I suspect that levers were pulled because we saw justice dispensed at a speed that I've never witnessed when I was in the profession.

Do I think that her husband being a Tory councillor made any difference ? No, in all honesty I don't.

Will we now see a trawl through SM to pick up on such comments ? Probably not but I suspect that the police will certainly be expected to act upon any complaints of similar comments.

Good post mate.

I think personally she was used to made an example of, can't say my heart bleeds for her as she is an obvious obnoxious racist.

Although the law should be blind, and not subject to anything but the raw facts, we all know that it isn't, if at a time like just happened someone does something like that, then can't sympathize with them when they get hammered for it at all.

Stupid woman does stupid hateful thing and gets hammered for it, move on.
 
Good post mate.

I think personally she was used to made an example of, can't say my heart bleeds for her as she is an obvious obnoxious racist.

Although the law should be blind, and not subject to anything but the raw facts, we all know that it isn't, if at a time like just happened someone does something like that, then can't sympathize with them when they get hammered for it at all.

Stupid woman does stupid hateful thing and gets hammered for it, move on.
I’m not naive enough to think that there wasn’t a significant element of dealing with the riots and the large scale disorder across the land . Just like in the 2011 riots a student got 6 months for stealing a bottle of water , would that student get it today ? Of course not .

In times of large scale national disorder then the legal system will come down hard on those in the middle of it . I suspect those arrested and being sentenced now , rather than a month or so ago will do marginally better as ‘control as been regained ‘ . The sentencing regarding social media posts were part of that and frankly a crucial part as it was key in riling up sections of the community . To me that isn’t two tier justice though and the offences committed were still offences and the sentences within the guidelines.
 
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