Current Affairs The benefits of Brexit Page

[Blues Harp]

Eh?

Work it out...if you can...Eh? Eh?
lol

 

[roydo]

Eh?

The document was leaked, the details were actually about the movement of antiques and stuff around the EU.

Who do you think leaked it? Who do think invented/referenced the Elgin Marbles? And who is blaming the EU?

And why?

 

[tremont]

I'm not really interested in if people believe something, regardless of how many might believe it. I'm asking for evidence and fact.

I'd suggest the facts do matter, regardless of whatever people might be conditioned to think because wrongly held beliefs can be extremely damaging. Like anti vaccination for example, where a significant proportion of people believe something which is damaging to public health.

It doesn't really help your argument being simultaneously pedantic about certain points and blase and dismissive of others.

I'd suggest the facts do matter, regardless of whatever people might be conditioned to think because wrongly held beliefs can be extremely damaging. Like anti vaccination for example, where a significant proportion of people believe something which is damaging to public health.

There's a bit of a difference though isn't there - Anti Vaccination is a health issue. I agree with you on that. Immigration is a social issue. You've missed that point completely. This is why it is about opinion of the people that have to live with it - not facts and evidence.

You can spout all you like about how this or that is proven to be good or bad. It really doesn't matter. If the people actually having to deal with immigration, think it has gone too far - then it has gone too far. It's really that simple. We are discussing two completely different issues. You haven't grasped that though have you.

I'm not really interested in if people believe something, regardless of how many might believe it.

"The people don't matter - Just look at the economy! Look at the multi-culture!". Yeah?

Carry on with your facts and evidence - they really do mean nothing. This is about people.

The world is full of Know-Nothing-Know-It-Alls. The ones that know better than everyone else. Do you know any?

I'm asking for evidence and fact.

Good luck with that mate. I wasn't aware I was working for you now. I'll put it in a nice Powerpoint presentation. Monday do you?

It doesn't really help your argument being simultaneously pedantic about certain points and blase and dismissive of others.

I'm not actually arguing with anyone. I think controlled immigration is a good thing. That's not an argument. It's my point of view.

Right - I'm done here. Would it help if I declared you the winner? The Champion of the Internet? Is it better if we say that you outsmarted me, and I've turned "nasty" about it? That I've hurried away with my tail between my legs? Or is just that I'm getting bored with having to repeatedly point out what my view is? And that I have absolutely no reason to try and convince you why I have that view?

(You'll notice a change in my attitude there mate. I was being civil - despite most of your condescending posts. That wasn't going to last forever)

Enjoy your day!

 

[Bishop Thumpety-Thump]

I'd suggest the facts do matter, regardless of whatever people might be conditioned to think because wrongly held beliefs can be extremely damaging. Like anti vaccination for example, where a significant proportion of people believe something which is damaging to public health.

There's a bit of a difference though isn't there - Anti Vaccination is a health issue. I agree with you on that. Immigration is a social issue. You've missed that point completely. This is why it is about opinion of the people that have to live with it - not facts and evidence.

You can spout all you like about how this or that is proven to be good or bad. It really doesn't matter. If the people actually having to deal with immigration, think it has gone too far - then it has gone too far. It's really that simple. We are discussing two completely different issues. You haven't grasped that though have you.

I'm not really interested in if people believe something, regardless of how many might believe it.

"The people don't matter - Just look at the economy! Look at the multi-culture!". Yeah?

Carry on with your facts and evidence - they really do mean nothing. This is about people.

The world is full of Know-Nothing-Know-It-Alls. The ones that know better than everyone else. Do you know any?

I'm asking for evidence and fact.

Good luck with that mate. I wasn't aware I was working for you now. I'll put it in a nice Powerpoint presentation. Monday do you?

It doesn't really help your argument being simultaneously pedantic about certain points and blase and dismissive of others.

I'm not actually arguing with anyone. I think controlled immigration is a good thing. That's not an argument. It's my point of view.

Right - I'm done here. Would it help if I declared you the winner? The Champion of the Internet? Is it better if we say that you outsmarted me, and I've turned "nasty" about it? That I've hurried away with my tail between my legs? Or is just that I'm getting bored with having to repeatedly point out what my view is? And that I have absolutely no reason to try and convince you why I have that view?

(You'll notice a change in my attitude there mate. I was being civil - despite most of your condescending posts. That wasn't going to last forever)

Enjoy your day!

Facts and evidence mean nothing? Wow.

If you really believe that then I agree you should probably stop posting in here. Try the Daily Mail comments section, facts and evidence count for nothing there.

Still not seen any tangible benefits of Brexit yet, after 36 pages. And here's me thinking all the Leavers knew exactly what they were voting for.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

@tremont what does this even mean?

‘This is why it is about opinion of the people that have to live with it - not facts and evidence.

You can spout all you like about how this or that is proven to be good or bad. It really doesn't matter. If the people actually having to deal with immigration, think it has gone too far - then it has gone too far.’

Who are these people who have to ‘live with it’? The bloke who has to suffer the ignominy of having a polish plumber move in next door? What are you talking about? We all live with immigration.

Only those who cry about it the most and use tropes like ‘we’re sinking’ etc are statistically proven to be in a larger majority in areas where there’s little EU migration at all.

Since the announcement this week about the new immigration system, I’ve read on social media and heard on talk show phone ins, people coming out with comments like ‘I don’t recognise Mile End Road anymore’ - an area with little EU migration but a high percentage of Bangladeshis. They’re lauding this new immigration rule that’ll make it much harder for EU Nationals to relocate here, whilst simultaneously moaning about non EU migrants that’ll now find it slightly easier to gain entry. But no, racism, xenophobia and plain ignorance was nothing to do with the Brexit vote.....honest.

Without the weaponisation of FoM Brexit never happens. I wonder how many will react when the realisation dawns that immigration won’t reduce and in fact the number of non EU migrants is highly likely to continue increasing.

 

[tremont]

@tremont what does this even mean?

‘This is why it is about opinion of the people that have to live with it - not facts and evidence.

You can spout all you like about how this or that is proven to be good or bad. It really doesn't matter. If the people actually having to deal with immigration, think it has gone too far - then it has gone too far.’

Who are these people who have to ‘live with it’? The bloke who has to suffer the ignominy of having a polish plumber move in next door? What are you talking about? We all live with immigration.

Only those who cry about it the most and use tropes like ‘we’re sinking’ etc are statistically proven to be in a larger majority in areas where there’s little EU migration at all.

Since the announcement this week about the new immigration system, I’ve read on social media and heard on talk show phone ins, people coming out with comments like ‘I don’t recognise Mile End Road anymore’ - an area with little EU migration but a high percentage of Bangladeshis. They’re lauding this new immigration rule that’ll make it much harder for EU Nationals to relocate here, whilst simultaneously moaning about non EU migrants that’ll now find it slightly easier to gain entry. But no, racism, xenophobia and plain ignorance was nothing to do with the Brexit vote.....honest.

Without the weaponisation of FoM Brexit never happens. I wonder how many will react when the realisation dawns that immigration won’t reduce and in fact the number of non EU migrants is highly likely to continue increasing.

Maybe I wasn’t clear:-

In 2016 there was a referendum. The people voted, and the majority voted to leave the EU (I actually didn’t vote to leave the EU, but have since changed my mind).

Three years went by and nothing.

In 2019 we had a general election. The party that wanted to “Get Brexit Done” – won a very healthy majority. We are leaving the EU. It doesn’t matter if you or I think this is a good thing or a bad thing. We are leaving, because the people want to leave. This is how democracy works.

If people are not happy about immigration, then it doesn’t matter whether immigration is a good or bad thing. It really doesn’t. People will vote for the party that will do something about immigration. Again – this is how democracy works.

Labour were beaten badly at the last election. The Lib-Dems lost their leader. In my opinion it was because they didn’t listen to people. They thought they knew best. Thing is – they might have known best, but that didn’t matter. The people are the ones that decide. Again – it’s how a democracy works.

If everyone decided that the BNP was the one for them, then it would be the BNP that would call the shots. This would be a terrible, but again- it’s how a democracy works. Hopefully it won’t come to that. The problem there though is that if the main political parties do ignore the people, then there could be a nightmare scenario where people do start looking at that sort of thing.

There is a reason Trump is president, and will be president again in November – the democrats have lost touch with the people that actually matter – The voters. Even if you think people are misinformed for voting for Brexit or those that vote for Trump are idiots – it doesn’t matter. It happened because we and the USA are a democracy. We can cry about it all we like. It doesn’t change it.

This is what I mean by facts and evidence not mattering. It just boils down to what people want. And so it should.

Right – I am definitely done here. Enjoy your day mate.

 

[Papa Shango]

Imagine living in a world were we classify and pigeonhole human beings based on their worth to society.

Humans are proper knobs.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I'd suggest the facts do matter, regardless of whatever people might be conditioned to think because wrongly held beliefs can be extremely damaging. Like anti vaccination for example, where a significant proportion of people believe something which is damaging to public health.

There's a bit of a difference though isn't there - Anti Vaccination is a health issue. I agree with you on that. Immigration is a social issue. You've missed that point completely. This is why it is about opinion of the people that have to live with it - not facts and evidence.

You can spout all you like about how this or that is proven to be good or bad. It really doesn't matter. If the people actually having to deal with immigration, think it has gone too far - then it has gone too far. It's really that simple. We are discussing two completely different issues. You haven't grasped that though have you.

I'm not really interested in if people believe something, regardless of how many might believe it.

"The people don't matter - Just look at the economy! Look at the multi-culture!". Yeah?

Carry on with your facts and evidence - they really do mean nothing. This is about people.

The world is full of Know-Nothing-Know-It-Alls. The ones that know better than everyone else. Do you know any?

I'm asking for evidence and fact.

Good luck with that mate. I wasn't aware I was working for you now. I'll put it in a nice Powerpoint presentation. Monday do you?

It doesn't really help your argument being simultaneously pedantic about certain points and blase and dismissive of others.

I'm not actually arguing with anyone. I think controlled immigration is a good thing. That's not an argument. It's my point of view.

Right - I'm done here. Would it help if I declared you the winner? The Champion of the Internet? Is it better if we say that you outsmarted me, and I've turned "nasty" about it? That I've hurried away with my tail between my legs? Or is just that I'm getting bored with having to repeatedly point out what my view is? And that I have absolutely no reason to try and convince you why I have that view?

(You'll notice a change in my attitude there mate. I was being civil - despite most of your condescending posts. That wasn't going to last forever)

Enjoy your day!

If you think the Earth is flat, it doesn't mean it is. No matter how much you might have a very strongly held opinion to support that.

It's pretty pointless having a very strongly held view and debating it on a forum, if you aren't prepared to offer an evidence.

 

[Harryflashman]

the best analogy I can think of is that after a marriage you’ve been in for years you hear a pub bore in the pub say your missus is carrying on behind your back . There is zero evidence for it in fact all the evidence is that she’s a loving caring and supportive wife that makes your life better by being in it but Jeff in the pub said he had heard this unsubstantiated rumour from this unspecified person and you didn’t like how it made you feel so that’s it your missus is gone and you’ve taken back control because it’s not about facts it’s about how you feel . In reality that decision was based on a ‘feeling ‘ in direct contradiction to all available evidence and facts but it’s one you’re entitled to make , doesn’t mean in my opinion you’re not a whopper .

 

[Jebus_lives]

If you think the Earth is flat, it doesn't mean it is. No matter how much you might have a very strongly held opinion to support that.

It's pretty pointless having a very strongly held view and debating it on a forum, if you aren't prepared to offer an evidence.

And anti vaccination is not a health issue, otherwise it would likely be mandatory. It's a social issue because all the evidence indicates it is beneficial for your and the greater public good, but some people wrongly believe it to be harmful, so actually create a health problem.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

If people are not happy about immigration, then it doesn’t matter whether immigration is a good or bad thing. It really doesn’t. People will vote for the party that will do something about immigration. Again – this is how democracy works.


This is what I mean by facts and evidence not mattering. It just boils down to what people want. And so it should.

Only your entire premise avoids the reason as to how people have been convinced that immigration is somehow a bad thing. You seem to be suggesting that it’s a conclusion they’ve arrived at themselves based on their own experiences. Which is demonstrably untrue when you analyse the evidence around the largest anti immigrant feeling being in areas with little immigration.

These people have been convinced that immigration is at the heart of this country’s problems, by some of the very people who’ve created this country’s problems. The offshore media moguls weaponised immigration to help achieve their Brexit goal, the Tories have played the same hand and ridden the wave of populism.

So facts and evidence do matter, as otherwise we’ll continue to live in an ever more paranoid, divided and racist society where large parts of the populous continue to be convinced to vote against their best interests, by those pushing this bogus low regulation, low taxation ideology, that is solely designed to benefit those at the top of the pyramid.

 

[Harryflashman]

Only your entire premise avoids the reason as to how people have been convinced that immigration is somehow a bad thing. You seem to be suggesting that it’s a conclusion they’ve arrived at themselves based on their own experiences. Which is demonstrably untrue when you analyse the evidence around the largest anti immigrant feeling being in areas with little immigration.

These people have been convinced that immigration is at the heart of this country’s problems, by some of the very people who’ve created this country’s problems. The offshore media moguls weaponised immigration to help achieve their Brexit goal, the Tories have played the same hand and ridden the wave of populism.

So facts and evidence do matter, as otherwise we’ll continue to live in an ever more paranoid, divided and racist society where large parts of the populous continue to be convinced to vote against their best interests, by those pushing this bogus low regulation, low taxation ideology, that is solely designed to benefit those at the top of the pyramid.

Nail head

 

[tremont]

Only your entire premise avoids the reason as to how people have been convinced that immigration is somehow a bad thing. You seem to be suggesting that it’s a conclusion they’ve arrived at themselves based on their own experiences. Which is demonstrably untrue when you analyse the evidence around the largest anti immigrant feeling being in areas with little immigration.

These people have been convinced that immigration is at the heart of this country’s problems, by some of the very people who’ve created this country’s problems. The offshore media moguls weaponised immigration to help achieve their Brexit goal, the Tories have played the same hand and ridden the wave of populism.

So facts and evidence do matter, as otherwise we’ll continue to live in an ever more paranoid, divided and racist society where large parts of the populous continue to be convinced to vote against their best interests, by those pushing this bogus low regulation, low taxation ideology, that is solely designed to benefit those at the top of the pyramid.

You have contradicted yourself, and also confirmed my points for me:-

These people have been convinced that immigration is at the heart of this country’s problems, by some of the very people who’ve created this country’s problems. The offshore media moguls weaponised immigration to help achieve their Brexit goal, the Tories have played the same hand and ridden the wave of populism.

So facts and evidence do matter...

This implies that facts and evidence have been ignored, and people have been convinced by something other than facts and evidence. So it boils down to what people think. It doesn't matter if they are correct in their thinking, or incorrect (because they have been lied to). The only fact that matters is they voted for the party they believed. The evidence is the party they believed are now in power. We might not like it, but it is what it is.

Weirdly, it's the opposite of the "Facts don't care about your feelings" thing.

I'm done now. This is the third day of this. I am going to the "Where we'll finish" forum (4th by the way).

 

[Papa Shango]

Only your entire premise avoids the reason as to how people have been convinced that immigration is somehow a bad thing. You seem to be suggesting that it’s a conclusion they’ve arrived at themselves based on their own experiences. Which is demonstrably untrue when you analyse the evidence around the largest anti immigrant feeling being in areas with little immigration.

These people have been convinced that immigration is at the heart of this country’s problems, by some of the very people who’ve created this country’s problems. The offshore media moguls weaponised immigration to help achieve their Brexit goal, the Tories have played the same hand and ridden the wave of populism.

So facts and evidence do matter, as otherwise we’ll continue to live in an ever more paranoid, divided and racist society where large parts of the populous continue to be convinced to vote against their best interests, by those pushing this bogus low regulation, low taxation ideology, that is solely designed to benefit those at the top of the pyramid.

It's classic divide and conquer stuff. Lets divert the publics attention from the real issues and put the blame on the people who are in the same (or similar) boat as you.

People questioning why is he getting benefits when I am not rather than why are we not both getting benefits etc.

A lot of people are incredibly dumb though. It's why the torys generally get in power more often than not despite them being totally against a massive percentage of the population and actively sneer upon them, its why people who genuinely care about others are looked down on as "snowflakes" or "libtards" or any other crappy moniker they are given, it's why the term left wing is seen as an insult (imagine being mocked for being left wing, for actually caring about people) it's utter madness.

Humans are put into divisions and are then given a goal of trying to get to the top of those divisions. Nobody should look to change the world or make it a better place, as long as you have a better car than Dave next door (even if it has put you in crippling debt) and you have your 2.4 kids, the house, the wife, some alcohol and some rubbish telly where you can watch other people trying to escape their division whilst poking fun at them then that's all they want you to aim for.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

You have contradicted yourself, and also confirmed my points for me:-

These people have been convinced that immigration is at the heart of this country’s problems, by some of the very people who’ve created this country’s problems. The offshore media moguls weaponised immigration to help achieve their Brexit goal, the Tories have played the same hand and ridden the wave of populism.

So facts and evidence do matter...

This implies that facts and evidence have been ignored, and people have been convinced by something other than facts and evidence. So it boils down to what people think. It doesn't matter if they are correct in their thinking, or incorrect (because they have been lied to). The only fact that matters is they voted for the party they believed. The evidence is the party they believed are now in power. We might not like it, but it is what it is.

Weirdly, it's the opposite of the "Facts don't care about your feelings" thing.

I'm done now. This is the third day of this. I am going to the "Where we'll finish" forum (4th by the way).

You’ve created a straw man there. Those pushing the bogus narrative have deliberately avoided actual facts, as they don’t suit their agenda. Focussing instead on misinformation that creates emotive reactions and lead people to believing that their misguided ‘beliefs’ somehow trump actual facts. The media has been at the heart of creating this twisted reality and it makes those who deal in truth, evidence and demonstrable facts even more important that they’ve ever been, if we’re to clamber out of this Bannonised rabbit hole.

So sorry, facts and evidence do matter, the challenge is how any opposition can ensure they form the key part of public discourse again when we now have such a massively biased right wing populist media at present. Now including the BBC who’ve been successfully convinced that they need to sing for their supper by this and the preceding Tory Govt.