Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread
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orchard
Player Valuation: £60m
Tell him to stop being a prat?
To be honest I think in a society with a large number of firearms , where three 911 calls had said somebody was pointing a firearm at people in the street and when the police turn up somebody points that object pictured in a two handed stance at the approaching police it’s understandable how he’s been shot .
Taking this issue at what’s at present in public domain is dangerous and I accept that and it’s fair to say several police shootings in the US have been nothing less than cold blooded murder but this case , as presented , does seem to be at least an understandable shooting. That situation may change but if I was armed and in that position , with the facts as they are , I can certainly see how that course of action is taken . That doesn’t mean the result isn’t tragic or that things may not change .
Well put.
I think we need to see all the evidence. But, the police turn upto an incident with no reported gun shots and its reported they turned up and opened fire with no warning. Trained Policeman who can't see what he is holding is not a gun.
Seems they have shot first and worried about the consquences later. Seems a tad excessive to say the least.
orchard
Player Valuation: £60m
Part of the job should be to ascertain whether there is a real threat before engaging, plus warning, imo.
It's not easy, more dangerous, but better for the public they serve.
It's not easy, more dangerous, but better for the public they serve.
orchard
Player Valuation: £60m
Have you seen a pen pistol before ? Doesn't look like the conventional type of gun you'd expect. Nevertheless still capable of discharging a round.
They have seconds to respond to a threat for which they have information provided en route which indicates it is a firearm and then the person takes up a shooting stance and people want them to say stop being a prat. How's that going to work when it's a operable firearm and the person isnt all there ?
It’s such a tough call though , if he’s pointing at people including them as they alight them I’m not sure it’d be called for them to shout a warning . Can I stress I’m not a blue lives matter type I can just see how this situation has arisen . Other situations are clearly different and can have no defence , a problem for me is that the previous behaviour of the police means that every incident is now tied to what’s gone before it . I’m not saying this situation might not change as more information comes to light .
No, but I've seen plenty of shower heads.
But here's the thing. Two handed shooting stance as they drove up. Is what is reported. You both say its an instinct and judgement call right. I get that tough to see it going any other way based on how US police officers are trained but how about common sense.
If a real perp with a gun saw them rock up and he chose a shooting stance he would either then fire or choose to run. This guy didn't he clearly was insane and yes they in their books made the right call. The black thing has nothing to do with it so i wish the press would drop that part.
The officers simply opened their doors and fired right away.
They had the cover of their squad cars by accounts well two of them at least did. So they were protected if he did fire in the interim.
It goes back to training. Someone earlier mentioned its military like. That's exactly how it is. They are trained to kill with their guns. No i am not against that in the right situation but not every potential suspect is out to kill a police officer or even can shoot as good as most of them.
Toffy you say you are Australian well then you know your police officers are trained to pull their baton first and when they decide its necessary their gun rapidly. Funny thing is the LAPD thought them that and the various forces in Australia adopted it and made it their own.
Again not against what they did because he did point a "weapon" at them and in their training they are told to use lethal force if its a gun. But i think they could have waited and tried to communicate. They had the jump on the guy and there was 4 of them so they easily had each others back.
Again though death by cop and insane people using firearms is an issue isn’t it ?
How do you have someone’s back if it is a firearm ? They fire and if it hits you you are either injured or dead , it’s not like it’s by his side and you can argue that if he raises it somebody has your back .
I feel surprised im defending the police to be honest , I more feel I’m trying to be reasoned about it . I can’t help but feel , understandably, that previous police shootings that have been little more than executions have muddied the waters so much .
Never said it wasn't. But usually they do talk or at least attempt to talk to those insane people and usually they do have weapons. There is plenty of footage online of them attempting to talk to suspects who have weapons drawn.
What i meant when i said they have each others back is the suspect would have to picked a target. If it were real the minute he fired at one of them he would be dead instantly.
They fired 10 rounds between them it might be noted. One of them could have fired a warning shot or shot at him and then see what happens. There are plenty of scenarios here.
Again i don't disagree with the outcome if anyone is stupid enough to point like they want to shoot then yes you will probably get shot by a cop in the US.
What i am saying is their tactics may need to be tweaked. They heard gun over the radio they were in no doubt going to put him down.
Other countries have dealt with this like i mentioned Australia.
I don't disagree with you it must be said i am offering another perspective.
But it is possible to arrest someone who has a gun without shooting 10 bullets at them, heck in the case below not only had the guy beaten his wife but he’d already shot at the officers yet he’s in jail after being overpowered and the bipolar guy with a shower head is dead.
http://www.wlky.com/article/louisville-man-arrested-after-firing-gun-at-officers/19649061
I think everyone understands that it is a difficult job and there will regrettably be circumstances where lethal force is the answer. But 987 people were fatally shot by police last year and a quarter of them were mentally ill, perhaps it is worth asking the question whether police training can be improved so they can protect themselves/the public whilst also dealing with the mentally ill in less lethal ways.
A few things.
Squad cars don't prevent a round from penetrating through into a cabin. There is still plenty of windows and being stuck in your car is the worst place when someone has a gun pointed at you. Training across the world, whether for police, military and in some cases civilians is to keep moving. Especially if an active shooter scenario exists. You do not want to be a sitting duck.
As for shooting to kill. You are trained to stop the threat. Now that means targeting the greatest centre of mass, being the torso. The result often if they achieve this means death may and likely does occur, however try shooting an arm or a leg and miss. Bystanders are at risk, especially on a new York street at 4pm. Such a difficult shot to achieve.
As for Australian police. Training is to meet the threat with equal or greater force. Once the person gets rid of said weapon, you then reassess and if necessary disengage and urilise another option. Be it a baton, taser, pepper/ oc spray.
As I stated earlier, without knowing all the details it's unfair to speculate. However based on what I'm aware of at the moment I have no issues with this incident.
At the end of the day however when you turn up to this incident as a police officer and information provided is that a man is acting crazy with a guy threatening people and when you arrive he points it towards you in a shooting stance there isn't much time to decide is it real ? Will he fire ? Is this possibly an active shooter ? Suicide by cop, and if it is then you don't want to be waiting for him to shoot first.
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