Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[verreauxi]

Oh look, hypocritical and nebbish NRA-funded Republican politicians are offering their thoughts and prayers again. How very helpful.

 

[Pettifogger]

What are the right and the lobbyists afraid of then? So put some checks and balances in and when it fails point fingers. What have they got to lose?

To simply say it won't work without empirical evidence or stats is disingenuous.

Your lot harp on about mental health and won't even do anyting about that. In fact Trump removed the one thing stopping someone who is mentally ill from getting a gun.

The right is hell bent on simply dismissing it and referring to their constitutional right. Honestly if you guys think the gun lobby cares about you and your guns then you are kidding yourself. They only care about you buying more guns and bullets.

Oh and not forgetting to bash the left and tell them they have no idea what they are talking about ala your very point.

A) The right is rightfully concerned that the stop gap measures won't work, the public's acceptance of gun regulations will grow, and regulations will be the starting point for more regulations.

B) The huge majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns. If you want to get into a statistical discussion with me about guns and gun crime, let's do it.

C) The right should do something about mental health, but as I've already stated, that requires a ton of work and certainly isn't the type of "quick fix" sensible gun control measures that are frequently touted. It would require serious discussions about privacy and liberty that don't relate specifically to guns. I'm all for that discussion, but let's lay out the truth about where we stand on the mental health front.

D) The NRA is not my type of organization. I don't like their practices. But I do understand their philosophy, which is essentially "no compromises, any crack in the dam will result in a total failure." I think they're dishonest in how they portray themselves, but the basis for their existence and philosophy is sound.

E) The left doesn't know what they're talking about with guns. Nor do most Republicans or people in media. It's embarrassing to see them speak passionately about something when they're clueless about the items of their ire.

 

[Ruairi77]

I'm quite familiar with firearms, the history of firearms in America, the lobbies on both sides, the firearms industry and the legal precedent forming the framework for America's firearm legislation reality.

I'm not insulted by your snark of equating that to "crap on the radio," but it is nonetheless very silly.

you might think that you can predict the future with high accuracy but the fact that you've come on here the day after 17 kids have been killed, to argue against common sense gun restrictions, suggests to me that, although although you come across as quite erudite at times, you're head has been turned.
What you see as Christian and American is what I see as quite the opposite.
Turn off your radio.

 

[Hogwild]

A few problems here. First, semi-auto and automatic rifles really "aren't the problem" in many ways. There have been recent incidents involving semi-auto rifles, but the majority of mass shootings occur with handguns. With the exception of a situation like Las Vegas, I don't think there is a great argument that semi-auto rifles are more effective.

The status quo is that both semi-auto rifles and handguns (among other firearms) are legal. So in your compromise, the pro-gun crowd is "getting" something they already have, without real pressure that they're going to lose something greater. If we were really on the verge of a complete ban, giving up semi-auto rifles might be a compromise, but we're not, so it's not.

Additionally, semi-auto rifles are used widely in hunting and other sporting, even outside of AR-15-related sports and the like. So I think that broad of a category is going to be a non-starter.

As mentioned, I understand some folks won't agree with me. I do believe they are part of the problem (not the whole problem, but certainly a significant contributing factor).

Also, I genuinely don't mean to be obtuse, but what do you hunt with semi-auto - are semi auto the best/only way to hunt this particular animal and what are the other sporting things you refer to? Again, not being patronizing - i truly don't know.

 

[verreauxi]

Many on "the left" have, and to pretend otherwise is foolish and undercuts the argument for those who want gun control.

Here is the reality:
A ban and confiscation would be necessary for significant reductions in US gun deaths. The only other alternative would be broad and difficult user-side restrictions relating to mental health and the like. Those, while viable, are not easy nor simplistically implemented. We should not abandon that latter discussion in particular, but it goes far beyond the "we're all in agreement, it's so easy!" plea. It's not easy.
So, when people on the left (or right, I suppose it doesn't matter) claim they want "common sense gun restrictions" that should already be in place, they're either a) advocating for something that likely won't make a difference, b) are ignorantly or intentionally misstating the scope of what would be required to put those restrictions in place or c) are lying/misleading about their end goals.
What would happen:
5 years from now, when enhanced background checks (unaccompanied by some broad new mental health database), closing the "gun show loophole" and magazine restrictions fail to significantly reduce firearm deaths, the "common sense gun control" folks will tell us those efforts weren't enough. Obviously, we need to do something more.
Now, most media and political commentators know nothing about firearms, so they may not appreciate that this future revelation - "we need to do more!" - was known from the outset. But entities, like the NRA, or like Everytown, already know this.
In short, when people claim "oh I don't want to take your guns" but advocate for other, "common sense" regulations, I predict, with high accuracy, that they either don't know what they're talking about, or they're lying.

What you wrote is simply the gun-lobbyist/lawyerly equivalent to offering "thoughts and prayers" which is to say, it is another way of justifying doing absolutely nothing while our high-schoolers get murdered in cold blood.

 

[roydo]

As a Brit, I think I speak for every level headed Brit, that we find the Merican gun culture/lobby/obsession, just dead weird.

 

[Pettifogger]

you might think that you can predict the future with high accuracy but the fact that you've come on here the day after 17 kids have been killed, to argue against common sense gun restrictions, suggests to me that, although although you come across as quite erudite at times, you're head has been turned.
What you see as Christian and American is what I see as quite the opposite.
Turn off your radio.

None of this has anything to do with my substantive points about the realities of gun control. It has to do with attempting to lessen the credibility of your opponent.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

A) The right is rightfully concerned that the stop gap measures won't work, the public's acceptance of gun regulations will grow, and regulations will be the starting point for more regulations.

B) The huge majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns. If you want to get into a statistical discussion with me about guns and gun crime, let's do it.

C) The right should do something about mental health, but as I've already stated, that requires a ton of work and certainly isn't the type of "quick fix" sensible gun control measures that are frequently touted. It would require serious discussions about privacy and liberty that don't relate specifically to guns. I'm all for that discussion, but let's lay out the truth about where we stand on the mental health front.

D) The NRA is not my type of organization. I don't like their practices. But I do understand their philosophy, which is essentially "no compromises, any crack in the dam will result in a total failure." I think they're dishonest in how they portray themselves, but the basis for their existence and philosophy is sound.

E) The left doesn't know what they're talking about with guns. Nor do most Republicans or people in media. It's embarrassing to see them speak passionately about something when they're clueless about the items of their ire.

Always worried about the standard - if X happens, then, this opens the door for A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K and L to happen, each of which are based its own facts and circumstances and other outside factors. This is always the default pro-gun response.

This really shouldn't even be a debate. How can we reduce the risk that idiots like Florida shooter can get his hands on an assault weapon and kill dozens of people at a time?

If we can at least agree this is something we should strive for, that'll be a start.

But we have our heads so far up our own asses to think big picture here.

And don't get me started on handgun vs assault weapon. In a mass shooting situation, handguns will kill less people. There are more gun crimes involving handguns, and I'd be willing to bet my life earnings on these being where the killer has an actual motive to kill a specific person. These mass shootings are designed to kill people indiscriminately

 

[glorydaze]

As a Brit, I think I speak for every level headed Brit, that we find the Merican gun culture/lobby/obsession, just dead weird.

That's putting it mildly.

 

[Ruairi77]

None of this has anything to do with my substantive points about the realities of gun control. It has to do with attempting to lessen the credibility of your opponent.

it's not a game. You're not my opponent. It's a chat on the internet where you said a day after a mass shooting that there's no point in commonsense gun restrictions.
turn off your radio.

 

[roydo]

That's putting it mildly.

Aye, slightly bonkers then.

 

[SteveSC]

A) The right is rightfully concerned that the stop gap measures won't work, the public's acceptance of gun regulations will grow, and regulations will be the starting point for more regulations.

B) The huge majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns. If you want to get into a statistical discussion with me about guns and gun crime, let's do it.

C) The right should do something about mental health, but as I've already stated, that requires a ton of work and certainly isn't the type of "quick fix" sensible gun control measures that are frequently touted. It would require serious discussions about privacy and liberty that don't relate specifically to guns. I'm all for that discussion, but let's lay out the truth about where we stand on the mental health front.

D) The NRA is not my type of organization. I don't like their practices. But I do understand their philosophy, which is essentially "no compromises, any crack in the dam will result in a total failure." I think they're dishonest in how they portray themselves, but the basis for their existence and philosophy is sound.

E) The left doesn't know what they're talking about with guns. Nor do most Republicans or people in media. It's embarrassing to see them speak passionately about something when they're clueless about the items of their ire.

a) So do nothing then?

b) Never mentioned what types of guns and very presumptuous of you to think that i mean't check and balances on rifles and larger weapons only. Aren't the checks the same for all weapons? Or lack of? I know what the stats say by the way and wasn't about to argue because to me stats in this country are to justify anything and then manipulated to justify something else. Also calm down who are you anyway to pretend you know more than anyone else about guns.

c) So do nothing because its hard work. The right have ample chances now to fix it as well they control the government. The last 3 major shootings were blamed on mental health. But i see nothing from them to do anything or tackle it. Its always thoughts and prayers, mental health move on. The only thing in place for mental health was removed by Trump.

d) Ok then. A slight contradiction but ok.

e) Oh ok so no one know anything about guns then except you right? WTF is that sort of logic. There are ex military men, scientists, cops and others who like guns who vote on the left are you saying no one knows anything about them then? How can you make that ridiculous claim. Whats embarrasing is you thinking that you know it all but anyone else is clueless haha!!

 

[glorydaze]

Aye, slightly bonkers then.

Nope, crank it up a lot more.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

it's not a game. You're not my opponent. It's a chat on the internet where you said a day after a mass shooting that there's no point in commonsense gun restrictions.
turn off your radio.

100 percent

 

[electricblue]

The worst bit is that we are not even shocked by this kind of news anymore. Utterly tragic.