Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

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The bar can be as high as you want, but you can't expect a cop to see a person with a gun reaching for something you can't see and ignoring instructions to stop reaching to put his life at unacceptable risk. All of that happened in the space of seven seconds - or 10 seconds from being notified the guy has a gun. It takes one second for someone to get their hands on a gun, turn and fire.

I have put myself in the victims shoes - as soon as the cop said, "don't reach for it then" and "don't pull it out", my hands are in the air. Complying. That's the thing. It doesn't matter if he says he's not reaching for the gun - in that instance, actions speak louder than words. He could easily have been saying "no, I'm not reaching for the gun sir", then pull it out and shoot.

It's not about being afraid of black people; it's about being afraid of a concealed weapon and not knowing what is going to happen if someone is inexplicably not following instruction. Take the ethnicity out of the equation and look at that transcript logically and my view is that it's obvious why he was acquitted.
But that logic means that anyone can shoot anyone because they are scared and they feel they might get hurt. There are plenty of social workers and nurses that deal with patients that exhibit threatening behaviour, even openly waving knives and guns around, and yet they don't shoot them and instead try to deescalate the situation.

And what of the 4 year old in the back seat - the officer had no idea if one of his shots was going to hit her or not let alone the girlfriend in the passanger seat.

Edit and he is following instructions- he is reaching for his license as the officer originally requested. The police officer should have said "Please place your hands on the wheel and don't move" or "put your hands up"on learning of the gun if that is what he wanted him to do but he didn't.
 
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But that logic means that anyone can shoot anyone because they are scared and they feel they might get hurt. There are plenty of social workers and nurses that deal with patients that exhibit threatening behaviour, even openly waving knives and guns around, and yet they don't shoot them and instead try to deescalate the situation.

And what of the 4 year old in the back seat - the officer had no idea if one of his shots was going to hit her or not let alone the girlfriend in the passanger seat.

Edit and he is following instructions- he is reaching for his license as the officer originally requested. The police officer should have said "Please place your hands on the wheel and don't move" or "put your hands up"on learning of the gun if that is what he wanted him to do but he didn't.

No, that's not the logic at all - it's not anyone, it's law enforcement. They deal with violent reactions every day. Social workers and nurses work in a completely different environment.

There's no "de-escalation" of a situation when you're a second away from potentially being shot in the face. Again, you aren't looking at the actual situation and instead looking at it with a sense of idealism. The onus on "de-escalating" that scenario is on the driver - e.g. stop reaching for your pocket when the officer says stop reaching for your pocket.

The four year old is irrelevant - the police officer had to act to protect himself and he shot accurately and with purpose.

And again, he is not following instructions. He was told repeatedly to stop reaching for "it". At that point, compliance is to stop reaching for it. Simple as that - no ifs, buts or maybes; stop reaching for whatever you are reaching for.

I have to stress again that all of this happened in the space of seven seconds - you have to look at whether the behaviour was reasonable. Given the evidence and transcript (not to mention the high levels of THC in the deceased system by the way), all of it suggests to me that it was very reasonable, and evidently it was to the court too.
 
No, that's not the logic at all - it's not anyone, it's law enforcement. They deal with violent reactions every day. Social workers and nurses work in a completely different environment.

There's no "de-escalation" of a situation when you're a second away from potentially being shot in the face. Again, you aren't looking at the actual situation and instead looking at it with a sense of idealism. The onus on "de-escalating" that scenario is on the driver - e.g. stop reaching for your pocket when the officer says stop reaching for your pocket.

The four year old is irrelevant - the police officer had to act to protect himself and he shot accurately and with purpose.

And again, he is not following instructions. He was told repeatedly to stop reaching for "it". At that point, compliance is to stop reaching for it. Simple as that - no ifs, buts or maybes; stop reaching for whatever you are reaching for.

I have to stress again that all of this happened in the space of seven seconds - you have to look at whether the behaviour was reasonable. Given the evidence and transcript (not to mention the high levels of THC in the deceased system by the way), all of it suggests to me that it was very reasonable, and evidently it was to the court too.
Of course there is de-escalation of a situation when you're a second away from being potentially shot in the face - there are many examples of police arresting armed people without shooting them first. And athough nurses and social workers don't have the same role they certainly deal with a lot of the same disturbed individuals the police do, they just don't get to shoot first and ask questions later.

The sole onus is not on the driver, there is also onus on the individual who not only has training but as you point out, deals with the situation on a regular basis, to give clear instructions and guidance. As you say this all happened in under 7 seconds but that also reflects badly on the officer - that is no time to give the driver to process the orders even if they had been a clear "don't move, stay completely still".

You are basically saying that any person in the US, unless they follow any order an officer gives, even if said orders are unclear or contradictory, instantly they have only themselves to blame if they are shot by police.

As for "the four year old is irrelevant", I have no words.
 


Isn't the NRA's answer to this: if the people who got shot had guns then likelihood would be reduced.

I remember Vince Vaughan saying this about schools, saying each classroom should have firearms in case of mass shootings.

Unbelievable, I don't get how they can't see that if you eliminate the root cause, the guns, the problem would reduced dramatically. Then again, someone would lose money and the all conquering USA can't have that
 
Of course there is de-escalation of a situation when you're a second away from being potentially shot in the face - there are many examples of police arresting armed people without shooting them first. And athough nurses and social workers don't have the same role they certainly deal with a lot of the same disturbed individuals the police do, they just don't get to shoot first and ask questions later.

The sole onus is not on the driver, there is also onus on the individual who not only has training but as you point out, deals with the situation on a regular basis, to give clear instructions and guidance. As you say this all happened in under 7 seconds but that also reflects badly on the officer - that is no time to give the driver to process the orders even if they had been a clear "don't move, stay completely still".

You are basically saying that any person in the US, unless they follow any order an officer gives, even if said orders are unclear or contradictory, instantly they have only themselves to blame if they are shot by police.

As for "the four year old is irrelevant", I have no words.

"Stop reaching" isn't unclear or contradictory. Yes, anyone in the US - or any country quite frankly - pulled over by the police should follow instruction. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

And the four year old is irrelevant in this scenario. Her being there does not and should not alter the officers judgement to discharge his weapon. It would only do so if she was in the way. She wasn't.

Ideally, the US would be like the UK and be largely unarmed, or if they have to have armed police then certainly not an armed populace - but it isn't, and therefore my preferences have to go out of the window and I look at the situation as it is. And the end result is an armed police officer has asked an admittedly armed driver to not reach for something, and the driver has continued to reach anyway.

The courts have seen it that way too - but because the Twitterati have decided every cop who kills a black person did it because they simply love doing it, then it is seen as a corrupt decision and another example of the system "failing".

The legal system in the US is broken in many ways, but you have to choose the correct sticks to beat it with - this isn't one of those situations.
 
"Stop reaching" isn't unclear or contradictory. Yes, anyone in the US - or any country quite frankly - pulled over by the police should follow instruction. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

And the four year old is irrelevant in this scenario. Her being there does not and should not alter the officers judgement to discharge his weapon. It would only do so if she was in the way. She wasn't.

Ideally, the US would be like the UK and be largely unarmed, or if they have to have armed police then certainly not an armed populace - but it isn't, and therefore my preferences have to go out of the window and I look at the situation as it is. And the end result is an armed police officer has asked an admittedly armed driver to not reach for something, and the driver has continued to reach anyway.

The courts have seen it that way too - but because the Twitterati have decided every cop who kills a black person did it because they simply love doing it, then it is seen as a corrupt decision and another example of the system "failing".

The legal system in the US is broken in many ways, but you have to choose the correct sticks to beat it with - this isn't one of those situations.
Read the testimony again
9:05:55 – 9:06:02 p.m. — Yanez said “Okay, don’t reach for it, then.” Castile responded: “I’m… I’m … [inaudible] reaching…,” before being again interrupted by Yanez, who said “Don’t pull it out.” Castile responded, “I’m not pulling it out,” and Reynolds said, “He’s not pulling it out.” Yanez screamed: “Don’t pull it out,” and pulled his gun with his right hand. Yanez fired seven shots in the direction of Castile in rapid succession. The seventh shot was fired at 9:06:02 p.m. Kauser did not touch or remove his gun.

The officer did not say "stop reaching", which could be interpreted as don't move at all. He said "don't reach for it"/"don't pull it out". Yes, it is clear that he is telling him not to reach for "it" ie the gun but it is not clear that he is telling him not to move at all or to not comply with his original request for the license - a "don't move" instruction or "hands on the wheel" or "keep your hands where I can see them" would be a lot clearer if that was the message he was trying to convey and are all phrases that are commonly used in traffic stops precisely to be clear.

And as I said he gave Castile no time in which understand that he might be meaning "don't move", he could have drawn his weapon and aimed it without firing, at least for a couple of seconds. There isn't even any evidence that Castile was still moving after the first "don't pull it out" as Castile says "I'm not pulling it out".

Of course the presence of the girl should alter the judgment of whether to discharge his weapon as gunshots can ricochet or pass through people/seats. At the very least it should have meant he paused to accurately aim before firing or only shoot once rather than empty 7 rounds into the car.

The cop and Castile had a miscommunication and the cop panicked and fired before thinking, I don't think the cop deliberately set out to hurt Castile but do think his actions deserved a manslaughter charge.

As you say the courts have decided differently but that doesn't mean that they got it right - you can't look at these stats on police shootings and think that it isn't a little odd there have been no convictions for anything improper just by sheer law of averages.
 
The officer did not say "stop reaching", which could be interpreted as don't move at all. He said "don't reach for it"/"don't pull it out". Yes, it is clear that he is telling him not to reach for "it" ie the gun but it is not clear that he is telling him not to move at all or to not comply with his original request for the license

Can't be bothered repeating myself over and over again, as you clearly have your own entrenched opinion on this and won't budge.

But for the above, I fundamentally disagree. It is as clear as day what the officer was saying and what the driver should have done. It's not about the words used - it is common sense. The driver should have immediately ceased any attempt to reach for anything.
 
Can't be bothered repeating myself over and over again, as you clearly have your own entrenched opinion on this and won't budge.

But for the above, I fundamentally disagree. It is as clear as day what the officer was saying and what the driver should have done. It's not about the words used - it is common sense. The driver should have immediately ceased any attempt to reach for anything.
I won't budge because I haven't found your arguments to do so convincing, the same as you clearly haven't found mine - I don't see why the snarkiness is called for.

As you say we fundamentally disagree on the clarity of the instructions. And even if I did feel the instruction was clear I don't believe that the, at most, 2-3 seconds the officer gave Castile to comply was sufficient time before deciding to shoot 7 bullets into him and a car occupied by a 4 year old.
 
I won't budge because I haven't found your arguments to do so convincing, the same as you clearly haven't found mine - I don't see why the snarkiness is called for.

As you say we fundamentally disagree on the clarity of the instructions. And even if I did feel the instruction was clear I don't believe that the, at most, 2-3 seconds the officer gave Castile to comply was sufficient time before deciding to shoot 7 bullets into him and a car occupied by a 4 year old.

It wasn't snarkiness, it was a statement of fact. There is no point continuing.
 
What's the solution?

If Congress and the President banned all guns tomorrow there would still be hundreds of millions of guns in the U.S.
I don't think there is a simple solution given the polarisation of such an issue, plus the fact the Constitution allows for such. I guess mandating background checks, closing the gun-show loophole and perhaps a ban on certain weapons e.g. assault rifles etc, and an extension of the waiting period would all serve to help. However, I also think adequately funding mental health services would work wonders too...
 
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