The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[Toffeelover]

That's a question of opinion. Your premise was that Labour had failed to introduce measures to back up their claims of compassion for the less well off. Operational difficulties there were but your premise, in my view, is incorrect.

Each to their own view,but IMO it could have been done as suggested, you disagree, okay I accept that. It is a free country and unlike many other countries we do have a pretty fair system of deciding who governs. Going to inter sting in May to see how this pans out.

There is one thing I will say and it applies to all the parties. They are very good at coming out with gimmicks, ideas, claims to get votes but invariably they do not provide detail as to how it will all be come to fruition.

 

[Seanjd]

No I have not but such a system should not have been required. It was also ill thought out and still is a mess. When it was first introduced the IT systems crashed and it all had to be done manually. It was such a cock up that millions were lost and even now it is still riddled with fraud.

If Brown had just adjusted the coding allowances and the thresholds the lower paid could have been helped far more easily and without having to employ a lot more Civil servants.

Working tax credits are not 'riddled with fraud', and neither is any other benefit.

Out of interest, and because you asked me if I was affiliated with the labour party and I gave you an honest answer and would expect one back, who are you leaning towards voting for?

 

[Toffeelover]

Working tax credits are not 'riddled with fraud', and neither is any other benefit.

Out of interest, and because you asked me if I was affiliated with the labour party and I gave you an honest answer and would expect one back, who are you leaning towards voting for?

I have responded mate. see PM.

As for the other points, believe me I have relatives involved with Tax and Benefits and there is a huge amount of fraud.

 

[1966efc]

Each to their own view,but IMO it could have been done as suggested, you disagree, okay I accept that. It is a free country and unlike many other countries we do have a pretty fair system of deciding who governs. Going to inter sting in May to see how this pans out.

There is one thing I will say and it applies to all the parties. They are very good at coming out with gimmicks, ideas, claims to get votes but invariably they do not provide detail as to how it will all be come to fruition.

Hear hear.

By the way, MVFE (Monetary Value of Fraud and Error DWP term -) was so insignificant that even the most extreme Conservative elements stopped using it as a stick to beat claimants and, about 4 years ago, adopted the "feckless" tag.

 

[Brennan]

I have responded mate. see PM.

As for the other points, believe me I have relatives involved with Tax and Benefits and there is a huge amount of fraud.

@Tubey

 

[bring the ghost on]

Benefit fraud is a problem, but it is blown out of all proportion. The right wing press use it demonise the poor and this gives the Tories a mandate to pursue horrific benefit cuts with public approval.

The cost of benefit fraud is insignificant compared with tax avoidance, but I guess people aren't interested in what it actually costs the country, only that there is some feckless 'scrounger' down the dole office allegedly living the life of riley on £60 per week.

 

[Seanjd]

I have responded mate. see PM.

As for the other points, believe me I have relatives involved with Tax and Benefits and there is a huge amount of fraud.

Just to put it into context, benefit fraud costs the country 1.1bn a year. 1.6bn of benefits are saved by the government through underpayment by either dwp or personal error.

Tax evasion costs the country over 10x that amount.

 

[Toffeelover]

@Tubey

Sorry Brennan, do not understand the tag Tubey?

 

[Toffeelover]

Just to put it into context, benefit fraud costs the country 1.1bn a year. 1.6bn of benefits are saved by the government through underpayment by either dwp or personal error.

Tax evasion costs the country over 10x that amount.

Yesterday the Diverted Profits legislation came into force which may help get hold of business like Google, Amazon, Kellogs, Nissan and many others, fingers crossed they can be made to put money back in the countries where they made the sales.

 

[Tubey]

@Tubey

I don't even have to refer to personal experience to call that out as stupid really - I can use concrete facts.

Benefit fraud equals approx. £1.2bn - next to nothing in terms of the overall benefit cost of £159bn. Even if you argued that this was only those caught and a low estimation, there's no way it's more than £4bn.

Not only that, tax evasion costs the government £34bn - 30x the amount benefit fraud does.

Benefit fraud a nothing issue in terms of finances; you're talking 2% or so at the very max. But, if I were to draw on personal experience, here it goes - from my own experience, I'd estimate for every 1,000 legitimate claims, you'd get around 10 fraudulent ones.

 

[Tubey]

Just to put it into context, benefit fraud costs the country 1.1bn a year. 1.6bn of benefits are saved by the government through underpayment by either dwp or personal error.

Tax evasion costs the country over 10x that amount.

FFS this will teach me to not read the rest of the thread once I'm tagged by someone...

Yeah, exactly this, although I'd definitely say it's an underestimate at £1.1bn, but not by much.

And your figure for tax evasion is off - it actually costs the country 30x as much.

But yes, generally correct.

 

[Seanjd]

I don't even have to refer to personal experience to call that out as stupid really - I can use concrete facts.

Benefit fraud equals approx. £1.2bn - next to nothing in terms of the overall benefit cost of £159bn. Even if you argued that this was only those caught and a low estimation, there's no way it's more than £4bn.

Not only that, tax evasion costs the government £34bn - 30x the amount benefit fraud does.

Benefit fraud a nothing issue in terms of finances; you're talking 2% or so at the very max. But, if I were to draw on personal experience, here it goes - from my own experience, I'd estimate for every 1,000 legitimate claims, you'd get around 10 fraudulent ones.

Absolutely. Again, ideology getting in the way of facts. The smartest thing the Tories ever did was turn the working class on the working class.

 

[1966efc]

I don't even have to refer to personal experience to call that out as stupid really - I can use concrete facts.

Benefit fraud equals approx. £1.2bn - next to nothing in terms of the overall benefit cost of £159bn. Even if you argued that this was only those caught and a low estimation, there's no way it's more than £4bn.

Not only that, tax evasion costs the government £34bn - 30x the amount benefit fraud does.

Benefit fraud a nothing issue in terms of finances; you're talking 2% or so at the very max. But, if I were to draw on personal experience, here it goes - from my own experience, I'd estimate for every 1,000 legitimate claims, you'd get around 10 fraudulent ones.

Absolutely. Which is why the political line used to sell benefit changes / cuts has been one of fecklessness rather than cheats.

 

[Seanjd]

FFS this will teach me to not read the rest of the thread once I'm tagged by someone...

Yeah, exactly this, although I'd definitely say it's an underestimate at £1.1bn, but not by much.

And your figure for tax evasion is off - it actually costs the country 30x as much.

But yes, generally correct.

Yep, 30x is correct, I couldn't recall the exact figure. It is incredible how that stat isn't circulated as widely as it should be.

 

[Tubey]

Absolutely. Which is why the political line used to sell benefit changes / cuts has been one of fecklessness rather than cheats.

The reason Brennan tagged me in is because I used to work for DWP, and the constant scapegoating of benefit claimants and the "paint them all as scavengers" approach sickened me to my stomach, and it all started in earnest when the Tories came into power in 2010.

As said above, the working class turned on the working class. They forgot that people who claim benefits are the same as them, but 99% of the time are simply unfortunate in life at that point in time. A massive shame.