I'm not interested in argument to defend a contention I didn't make.
If the word justice rather than punishment was used in a post then I'm sorry if I misspoke and it's had such a startling effect upon you.
Stephen Lawrence
- Thread starter larbert toffee
- Start date
I'm not interested in argument to defend a contention I didn't make.
If the word justice rather than punishment was used in a post then I'm sorry if I misspoke and it's had such a startling effect upon you.
Alan Whittle
Player Valuation: £70m
Mmm. It’s a forum. People debate. You think someone is startled because they debate with you.
Rita_Poon
Player Valuation: £100m
Doesn't want to debate, hence the vice like grip on it being a 'police' issue and not a 'criminals in uniform' one. The game was given away with the torture in prison stuff, when bloodthirst is disguised as 'adequate punishment' for societies betterment. Oh, also the roughshod over the presumption of innocence. Loved the beaten up question as well. Deranged.Mmm. It’s a forum. People debate. You think someone is startled because they debate with you.
Was a discussion on Radio4 the other evening and some of the other considerations sounded valid to me.
Continued expression of racist opinions and the use of racist abusive terms whilst in custody was one, undermininghis claims to be a better man. Chuck in the assessment the guy remains a massive malignant danger to others, well, even if he confessed, I'd not really want his ilk free.
As usual you made it a police issue.
I pity you as it appears your alleged mistreatment by the police has obviously permeated your whole character now with bitterness.
Leaving this here now, it holds no interest for me.
I dont think anyone who murders in cold blood should be eligible for parole
I think our emotions have gotten the best of us here @Rita_Poon
I think we hold contrasting opinions in a couple key areas however I know full well you're a good guy.
Just putting this out here as to no hard feelings and I apologise for any personal offence.
Let's hug this out or continue this via dm if needed.
Big love x
I think we hold contrasting opinions in a couple key areas however I know full well you're a good guy.
Just putting this out here as to no hard feelings and I apologise for any personal offence.
Let's hug this out or continue this via dm if needed.
Big love x
Stuff that, I'm off to start a Hill Dickinson Arena thread so you and @Rita_Poon can savagely bludgeon each other to death. With truncheons.
AND ITS LIVE!
Rita_Poon
Player Valuation: £100m
I reckon we are hanging onto some very similar ground re this particular topic, the state of things as they are seems to be in a death-spiral and the frustrations and sympathies that go with the collateral damage of serious criminality can be grinding because of the seeming hopelessness of a society and accompanying media stream that shovels bad after worse onto our respective plates with no answers and no respite. I acknowledge that nine times out of ten when police criminality or excessive force or yet another horrendous occasion involving them, that it's me that posts it up with my ever present 'not very pleased'* commentary alongside. Sorry not required, no offence taken, I know dealing with me can be an ordeal, I have to live it so am reminded in minute detail.
'When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions'.
Never an ordeal, always a pleasure.
If this were over a pint in a pub it wouldn't be a thing, online it appears brutal.
We both come I think from a sense of both feeling unsafe, of not being secure with the status quo. If that doesn't resonate for you it's cool, just my take.
Rita_Poon
Player Valuation: £100m
I'm old, and tired, and my faith in common decency has been eroded. I firmly believe the shifting sands of the deformed juggernaut are bringing a sharper edge to current value evaluation (I'm not accusing you of being a farage luvvie nor a roundabout painter, or anyone else for that matter) and general discourse has become totally polarised and so common ground is a mine field. We've got a situation currently where peaceful protest is under attack, the crazies in two somehow mainstream parties want us to join russia outside of the ECHR, the inevitable attitudes that come from that bunch re capital punishment are due, and another layer of brexit is on the cards. We've had a near decade of incredible self harm and a lot of the people suffering it want more so long as it's minorities facing the worst of it. On a related note, one of the top banking bigwigs in the u.s. has told today that u.s. stocks aren't as safe as some believe and we could be on the precipice of another financial crash (gold has reached another new record high). When northern rock collapsed in 2008 (was it?) and the nuclear financial fallout was unleashed, I never thought we'd be here, facing nearly two decades of falling standards, lower life expectancy, commonplace racism, deathly violence in schools, it all seems so hopeless.
Reminds me of a joke I first read on the OS forum (now long long gone), B.Kenwright "due to operational costs and for the sustainability of the club, the light at the end of the tunnel has had to be switched off."
The overarching debate of Justice v. Rehabilitation is always gonna be a difficult one to parse.
One one hand, you want justice for the victim. As a victim you'd want to know that the person (or persons) who have wronged you will be punished for their actions. Rightfully so.
On the other hand, you want rehabilitation for the good of society. Locking someone up indefinitely benefits no one (exception for the serious offences that require it) and offenders returning to prison in an almost endless cycle, being unable to break from their lifestyle and habits and all the costs this incurs (both the financial cost of locking someone up & sending them to trial and the cost to society itself) is also counter productive. You want the justice system to break that cycle and potentially give a pathway for offenders to become productive members of society once the justice part has been served.
Balancing the two is the hard part.
The justice system, especially the prison system is very much a one-size-fits-all approach to an incredibly complex subject of how and why people end up there repeatedly.
This would require massive investment into the justice system, especially for the prison and probation services to improve a lot of the Victorian era bighouses around the country, their facilities, staffing levels, quality of staff and indeed their wage structure (which contributes heavily to the struggle of finding and retaining decent staff and of course the massive problem of corruption within the Prison Service.)
Making that type of investment as a politician would be pretty much career suicide though, especially in the midst of a cost of living crisis.
If you have people working 40+ hours a week and still needing to use foodbanks, you can't then throw a huge chunk of your budget at improving life opportunities for those who have chosen to break the law and not expect there to be a huge public backlash to that.
On the subject of this thread, when it comes to offenders saying they are 'rehabilitated' I think that needs to be shown demonstrably. When it comes to something as high profile as this, holding on to some sort of criminal code of not snitching at this point would say to me that he isn't truly rehabilitated or shows any remorse for his actions, if those continued actions are to deny Stephens family true justice for his death. And that's where the justice vs. rehabilitation debate comes to a standstill in this case.
One one hand, you want justice for the victim. As a victim you'd want to know that the person (or persons) who have wronged you will be punished for their actions. Rightfully so.
On the other hand, you want rehabilitation for the good of society. Locking someone up indefinitely benefits no one (exception for the serious offences that require it) and offenders returning to prison in an almost endless cycle, being unable to break from their lifestyle and habits and all the costs this incurs (both the financial cost of locking someone up & sending them to trial and the cost to society itself) is also counter productive. You want the justice system to break that cycle and potentially give a pathway for offenders to become productive members of society once the justice part has been served.
Balancing the two is the hard part.
The justice system, especially the prison system is very much a one-size-fits-all approach to an incredibly complex subject of how and why people end up there repeatedly.
This would require massive investment into the justice system, especially for the prison and probation services to improve a lot of the Victorian era bighouses around the country, their facilities, staffing levels, quality of staff and indeed their wage structure (which contributes heavily to the struggle of finding and retaining decent staff and of course the massive problem of corruption within the Prison Service.)
Making that type of investment as a politician would be pretty much career suicide though, especially in the midst of a cost of living crisis.
If you have people working 40+ hours a week and still needing to use foodbanks, you can't then throw a huge chunk of your budget at improving life opportunities for those who have chosen to break the law and not expect there to be a huge public backlash to that.
On the subject of this thread, when it comes to offenders saying they are 'rehabilitated' I think that needs to be shown demonstrably. When it comes to something as high profile as this, holding on to some sort of criminal code of not snitching at this point would say to me that he isn't truly rehabilitated or shows any remorse for his actions, if those continued actions are to deny Stephens family true justice for his death. And that's where the justice vs. rehabilitation debate comes to a standstill in this case.
Rita_Poon
Player Valuation: £100m
There are maniacs out there, to run a parallel, kenneth noye attacked and killed Stephen Cameron with a nine inch knife in a road rage incident in May 1996. noye had some pals, that helped him go on the run. An eye witness to this murder was a man named Alan Decabral, he gave evidence against noye and also turned down protection from the authorities. He was shot dead in his car sat outside the supermarket in the middle of the day surrounded by lots of people by a currently unknown assassin. This occurred 6 months after noye's conviction and incarceration.
Why is this raised here? david norris' father clifford was a smuggler involved with serious crime and illegal drug importation. I don't like it, I touched on it previous, but I can see why appearing to cooperate with authorities could be detrimental to norris and his immediates. I suspect had he coughed up against the other three (four but ones dead now) at the time of his trial he'd have been treated more leniently, this is the long game him and his legal team have played. They've used the law and seen out the time and by the technicalities, and by precedents set in other similar cases, he's due to be released sooner than later. I'm not happy about it, not one bit, and it means that poor Lawrence family have to have this nightmare dragged up, and be confronted with the freedoms allowed their sons killers to be afforded - by a media that thrive on their pain and torment.
dobson is on for parole next year? same whirlwind of fiasco to surround that? I have no sympathy for either, if they can I'd expect them to move abroad, because the intrusion of the media will mean they won't be able to so much as flick a cigarette butt without spotlight and furore. In fact they may end up with new identities because there's a chance this case has upset some to an extent that they may not be safe in society anymore.
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