Squad - what squad?!!

[Ihaters]

We kept him after we finished 17th in his second full season, mate. Our board aren't a trigger happy bunch.

1 season after a very good season, our board are not stupid either. If he had another 1 or two poor seasons he would not still be here, if he had 3 or 4 average seasons where we finished mid table or less then he would still be here but he would not be getting paid what he does, but he did none of those things, instead he finished in the top 8 nearly every season bar 2 without financial backing and the money that he generated through that and transfers makes him more than worth his wages to the fans, the team and the board.
They kept him and pay him what they do because he is worth keeping at that price.

 

[paulbefc]

It was a good decision. I don't buy that Wolves would have stayed up if they hadn't sacked McCarthy though, that's media driven rubbish.

I think the fact we finished 4th 12 months later qualifies it as on of the best decisions I've seen a board/owner make, tbh. And I ****ing hate the bastards.

I think most owners have learnt that it's better to stick with your man and back him, recently. I do think the fella who took over at Wolves looked hopelessly out of his depth though. As did Steve Kean, tbf.

 

[Allezfan]

My point is that Moyes has a pretty good job here. He has complete control over the playing side of the club, huge wages and very little expectation or chance of being sacked. Do you really think that if Moyes goes, there wouldn't be loads and loads of managers looking at that job and going 'yeah I want a bit of that'?

This idea that nobody half decent would want to come here is one I don't buy. Especially since just by dint of what league we're palying in we're in a better position to attract and hold onto players than 99% of the worlds clubs.

 

[Allezfan]

I think the fact we finished 4th 12 months later qualifies it as on of the best decisions I've seen a board/owner make, tbh. And I ****ing hate the bastards.

I think most owners have learnt that it's better to stick with your man and back him, recently. I do think the fella who took over at Wolves looked hopelessly out of his depth though. As did Steve Kean, tbf.

West Brom replacing di matteo? Sunderland replacing bruce? West Ham sticking with Grant?

The mistake Wolves made wasn't sacking McCarthy it was not having a better replacement.

But you're right about it being a superb decision by our board.

 

[paulbefc]

My point is that Moyes has a pretty good job here. He has complete control over the playing side of the club, huge wages and very little expectation or chance of being sacked. Do you really think that if Moyes goes, there wouldn't be loads and loads of managers looking at that job and going 'yeah I want a bit of that'?

This idea that nobody half decent would want to come here is one I don't buy. Especially since just by dint of what league we're palying in we're in a better position to attract and hold onto players than 99% of the worlds clubs.

Most decent managers will want to know how much money they'll have to spend year on year before they even get close to signing for anyone. O'Neill would not be at Sunderland had they not assured him he could piss away £12m and more on the likes of Steven Fletcher. He's an example of a manager who wouldn't dream of coming here. He wouldn't have the correct resources to do his job well.

 

[Allezfan]

Most decent managers will want to know how much money they'll have to spend year on year before they even get close to signing for anyone. O'Neill would not be at Sunderland had they not assured him he could piss away £12m and more on the likes of Steven Fletcher. He's an example of a manager who wouldn't dream of coming here. He wouldn't have the correct resources to do his job well.

No, you wouldn't be able to get an estabilished premier league manager. You would be able to get a young mangaer from the lower or foriegn leagues who are used to working on a budget and would be a happy at a shot at the big time, though.

 

[RFUS]

No, you wouldn't be able to get an estabilished premier league manager. You would be able to get a young mangaer from the lower or foriegn leagues who are used to working on a budget and would be a happy at a shot at the big time, though.

I'm sorry mate but when has that ever worked for anyone?

 

[Allezfan]

I'm sorry mate but when has that ever worked for anyone?

Are you being sarcastic, here? Because you know Moyes.

 

[toffeejack]

i think it is time for a change for us, it clearly isn't working for moyes, we are not moving forward, not totally his fault obviously, but i want a manager who is willing to win, not to just avoid defeat. the problem is, i really dont trust kenwright to find the right man, he did well with moyes' appointment but i really don't think he'd be able to pull it off again. lets hope the decision isn't left up purely to him

 

[Brennan]

I'm sorry mate but when has that ever worked for anyone?

Villas Boas

Academica - 2009-2010
Porto - 2010-2011

Now granted his exploits at Chelsea were poor, but he went from managing a relegation struggling team to 11th place in the table before going to Porto and winning the league and Europa in his first season.

Everybody starts somewhere, and i'm 100% certain that there are plenty of other upcoming managers out there who could guide us to mid table finishes on a consistent basis. Moyes is a good manager with an eye for a cheap player, but he's not the messiah.

 

[Ozdec]

I would argue that Moyes is one of our most successful managers since the return to the top division in 1955 after Kendall and Catterick and both of those are tarnished with a number of low league finishes at some point in their various tenures.

IMO Moyes has given this club a level of consistency that we have not had since the mid 80's. However due to an imbalance in budgets we now are behind the level of spending of almost every other team in the premiership including the newly promoted ones in some instances.

With improved budgets the clubs ability to attract and retain players would be better and may have lead to a deeper squad and some better players in some key positions meaning we would be able to compete in multiple competitions with more success.

We don't have that luxury atm. So we end up signing who we can and not who we want.

I as Toffeejack however do think that a change could be good but am afraid of who we would end up with. I would much prefer a change of ownership/board direction as a bigger priority.

 

[Animal Farm]

Suggests that we should look at Joe Royle's career as a whole

Royle's managerial record is superior to Moyes'.

Prior to managing Everton he won the Championship/Division 2 with Oldham, (Oldham FFS). He then kept them in the premier league for two seasons, and took Oldham to a League Cup Final and two FA Cup Semi-Finals before joining Everton.

He then went and WON the cup with Everton.

He then went and took Manchester City from League one all the way to the Premiership following two successive promotions.

Moyes' record comes nowhere near that, not even close.

 

[davek]

No, but then I think they are two separate entities which was my argument.. You see if backing Moyes is backing the board then congrats are in order to the board for 2005, personally I don't buy it as I thought Moyes did a cracking job that year and the board were... well the board.
Just demonstrating the difference between the two entities.

Then you have a static view of relationships. If Moyes could be defined apart from the Everton board in that he was ambitious and demanding that at least money brought into the club from sales be recycled for team purposes, then that period was before 2009. I see that as the watershed year when he stopped fighting for team progression and accepted the board's demands to pull the team's horns in and hunker down to pay off organisational debt...debt that the board ran up by failing to invest personally but rather seeking to keep borrowing at a heavy cost for the club. Moyes signed up for that programme of cuts. He also then publically denounced supporters who made a stand against the change in direction in order to shore up his beleaguered board of directors.

I have no hesitation in declaring Moyes and the board as one. It's a regime of managed decline and Moyes is one of the overseers of that decline. Hearing the words 'ambition' and 'achievement' come from his mouth is a complete piss take. Botttom line is that he's a phenomenally expensive CEO of an organisation that's being asset stripped. Each passing year serves to underline that.

 

[blueblue]

Davek.
I see the events of the last few years at the club in a different way.I think that David Moyes felt that players like Arteta,Cahill ,Baines,Jagielka and a few others could only be kept at the club if a new level of wages were to be paid.We saw huge new contracts given to Cahill,Neville,Arteta,Bily ,Heitinga etc....even Yobo apparently was given 55k per week and there was no intention of playing him.
We couldn't sustain those levels,we were going deeper in debt,we couldn't sign any new players and ultimately our team was still short of probably three players to make us competitive at the upper levels.
I think the manager has realised that he has to go back to the earlier template of signing bargain turning them into better players and accepting this a player will have to sold to help balance the books.
This will continue until new money is pumped into the club,we don't have the wealth in our current board to invest money and we don't have a ground ,fanbase or club profile that can generate the kind of money that other clubs can generate.
Regarding David Moyes,I would say that I am generally supportive,apart from his tendency to be a negative manager than positive.I think he gets his tactics right against top four teams more often than not.However,it is his tendency to pick defensive ,dull teams at home against teams at the bootom of the league that infuriates me.Certain teams come to Goodison expecting to be beaten and the manager gives them a present of point because of his lack of adventure in his team selection.

 

[davek]

Davek.
I see the events of the last few years at the club in a different way.I think that David Moyes felt that players like Arteta,Cahill ,Baines,Jagielka and a few others could only be kept at the club if a new level of wages were to be paid.We saw huge new contracts given to Cahill,Neville,Arteta,Bily ,Heitinga etc....even Yobo apparently was given 55k per week and there was no intention of playing him.
We couldn't sustain those levels,we were going deeper in debt,we couldn't sign any new players and ultimately our team was still short of probably three players to make us competitive at the upper levels.
I think the manager has realised that he has to go back to the earlier template of signing bargain turning them into better players and accepting this a player will have to sold to help balance the books.
This will continue until new money is pumped into the club,we don't have the wealth in our current board to invest money and we don't have a ground ,fanbase or club profile that can generate the kind of money that other clubs can generate.
Regarding David Moyes,I would say that I am generally supportive,apart from his tendency to be a negative manager than positive.I think he gets his tactics right against top four teams more often than not.However,it is his tendency to pick defensive ,dull teams at home against teams at the bootom of the league that infuriates me.Certain teams come to Goodison expecting to be beaten and the manager gives them a present of point because of his lack of adventure in his team selection.

I'd say that was the transitional phase - Moyes was basically told "buy players or keep your existing quality players happy and at the club by using the cash instead to beef up wages". He did the latter and it didn't work out for him. Since then he's had no option at all. He's been told (and he's accepted) that available money is being diverted away from the playing side to pay down debt. I had hoped this summer might have brought about a new chapter on the back of more tv cash and Moyes having a bargaining position over his contract. Thus far we've just seen millions in wages shifted out offset by Pienaar's return + Naismith's wages.

My gripe is this: Moyes has a hand to play and he isn't willing to buck the staus quo to play it. Primarily because he knows he has nowhere better to run to if the board call his bluff....although my sneaking suspicion is that Moyes is a very conservative man and rocking the boat doesn't come naturally to him, and he's someone quite happy as long as he's getting patted n the head and told what a wonderful job he's doing against the odds. He's exactly the type of manager that we can least afford right now.