To be fair Dave, Conte has achieved nothing so far either in his time at Chelsea. Season isn't over yet so it is hard to say Koeman isn't doing a good job when the same measure can be made of Conte who will probably be a title winning manager in May.
Cue for a 'that was the minimum that was expected. He had a solid foundation, all those players were identified by others so no great move forward, we didn't strengthen where we needed to, he's brought in average grocks. The real challenge is if (with the mountains of cash he'll spend) he can win us a trophy and keep Lukaku.... That's the least we should expect of him. Until he wins a trophy he's a piece of dirt'
Plenty of managers an players achieve nothing in their career. Doesn't make them poor or sub standard. The argument that seems to be put forward is 'x player hasn't won anything therefore they are crap... But if they leave a club that wins nothing they are a traitor or they cannot be considered a success until they've won something which makes absolutely no sense in a team sport. And where things have been won, which would be considered achievement they are batted back as insignificant to fit whatever changing goalpost someone wants to make. 'oh the Dutch league?? .. It's like the championship... The German league?? Who do they have Bayern Munich?? Who else?? Spain...It's no real test rolling over Getafe.
We can take it as a given that Koeman wont be doing anything greater than 6th. That's not exactly an appropriate comparison with Conte - even allowing for their greater resources over Everton's.
He didn't really ask for a breakdown of who you thought was good or not... He asked if we were better than last season. If your answer is 'Lukaku is better than last season' why? What has marked the improvement?
I agree about finishing there is a good start to things here under Koeman and i think overall the general perception right now is less of an achieving mid frame and more of a rebuilding one. But for a manager to add at leasr 4-5 league places on the last 2 seasons, possibly finish in europe and strip up to 14 players out of a squad who are not good enough then that is a success to me. So many players were not good enough i am sure you will agree and it is nice to see so many of them being moved out of the club so efficiently is a positive sign of the direction we are going in. The integration of putting young players through the under 23s before using them in the match squad is a positive, and could well give us 6-7 players in the first team in 5 years time that way. I can see us with so many potential positives if we can get it all right and we have achieved this by essentially only spending small amounts of money.
I agree, it is like the Messi Argument in a nutshell, he isn't deemed the best ever by some because he has never won the wold cup, even though you can clearly see by watching him he is far beyond even the likes of Maradona in terms of talent and ability.
I'd have Guivarc'h or Diomede any day of the week. Proven winners! Top top talents.
