Roberto Martinez discussion

[davek]

Jags is an outstanding talent.

Moyes trained him well.

He was a good defender under Moyes...for the type of meat and potato football we played under him. The feller's barely competent with anything more complex. But under neither manager has he been an organiser.

 

[orly]

Disagree. I think more likely is that what you've seen is a strategy to take account of the quality and type of opposition we've faced in the last two matches. I don't see us standing off against poorer opposition. We'll take control of the ball and be a lot more open against 'lesser' teams.

Which is right. You don't play out the same strategy all season long, situations dictate it that you don't.

So then the argument should be that he's got the strategy spot-on against the bigger sides (united at home the exception but there were extenuating circumstances) and wrong against the smaller teams, which is why we chucked all the points away?

Bringing on Osman yesterday was a huge statement of a shift of ideas. Four weeks ago, that would have been Kone or Mirallas, or even Lennon. He brought Osman on because, rather than play 100 mile per hour football, he trusted our forward line enough to get a winner in controlled fashion, rather than the mental gung-ho of Bournemouth / Stoke etc.

Clear shift in tactics and a man who had learned from his mistakes. He even did it last year with the introduction of Lennon - a player who is more than comfortable doing the dirty work (to the point he could fill at Right Back).

Newcastle, Tottenham, City - look more solid with players who bring balance to the side. Anomaly in this sequence of results? Stoke, where everything just screamed chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge.

 

[maccavennie]

As I said after the Spurs game, it looks like the Stoke performance was the last straw for all concerned. There has definitely been a shift in thinking and style of play.

It's been excellent selections and circumstance that Besic has come into the side but he looks by far and away the most comfortable playing in the deep lying role next to Barry. I think McCarthy plays better a little further forward (to the extent we play with one shielding mid rather than two), Cleverly isn't good enough in the role and it robs Barkley of his favoured position when he plays there.

Our in-form, best midfield 3 at the moment is probably Barry / Besic / Barkley. I like Del but he's looking a little tired at the moment, so might be worth having Lennon out there (particularly with Coleman out at RB). I'd still go with Mirallas on the left.

I'm pretty hopeful that Lennon will really come into his own and be vital the next 10 matches Orly. Del has had a great season so far and I think even Bobby knows not to burn him out too soon and get Lennon some minutes in the games coming up. Give Del little breathers and he will have lasted the whole course of the season then.

 

[Khalekan]

Disagree. I think more likely is that what you've seen is a strategy to take account of the quality and type of opposition we've faced in the last two matches. I don't see us standing off against poorer opposition. We'll take control of the ball and be a lot more open against 'lesser' teams.

Which is right. You don't play out the same strategy all season long, situations dictate it that you don't.

Was going to post a similiar response my own self, Dave.

Most definitely a team will set up differently against City and Spurs than they will against Stoke.

 

[blulouie]

Koeman or the Chile coach would be my two choices, with Flores from Watford an outsider choice. I like Martinez as a person he's a fantastic bloke and is very respectfu/speaks well of our club/it's great history, but I just think he's too stubborn to his philosophy and won't budge on it. Unless your up against the top 6 teams he will go all out attack which is suicidal in the current nature of our league, the tv deal has made most clubs outside the bottom 3/4 clubs competitive with dangerous attacking players, and it's costing us dear. Add in the Howard/Kone scenarios it makes you wonder long term will he ever reach this current sides potential, I would love him too but I just can't see it.

Koeman possibly.
Bielsa strict disciplinarian.
Flores 1st season.
Good choices but again no guarantees there , all would require time / rebuildng their way.
This will be Howard & Kone's last seasons same as Alcaraz last year.
This is the best squad in decades and play in a way we've not seen in a generation.
On this basis I think we are 2 players short of being a Top Table team so I'm prepared to stick with him.
A trophy under this manager and I'm certain would be the start of great things.

 

[orly]

I'm pretty hopeful that Lennon will really come into his own and be vital the next 10 matches Orly. Del has had a great season so far and I think even Bobby knows not to burn him out too soon and get Lennon some minutes in the games coming up. Give Del little breathers and he will have lasted the whole course of the season then.

100% agree there chap.

Lennon is exactly the player to come in when you've been leaking goals. Works hard, capable of the odd goal and assist, generally makes the right (if overly safe) decision.

We need to tighten up, we are doing so demonstrably - players like Lennon and, I hate to say it, Osman help you do this. There is still enough talent in the side to score goals - just this time, more goals than we concede.

For me, it's a shame but understandable that Del isn't quite so effective on the left. Then we could play both and we'd be a far more rounded side.

Alternatively, we play Kone and Del and have opposition flying at our full backs all day.

 

[micknick]

He was a good defender under Moyes...for the type of meat and potato football we played under him. The feller's barely competent with anything more complex. But under neither manager has he been an organiser.

We've missed his organisational skills at the back. He makes players look better when he plays alongside them.

 

[maccavennie]

100% agree there chap.

Lennon is exactly the player to come in when you've been leaking goals. Works hard, capable of the odd goal and assist, generally makes the right (if overly safe) decision.

We need to tighten up, we are doing so demonstrably - players like Lennon and, I hate to say it, Osman help you do this. There is still enough talent in the side to score goals - just this time, more goals than we concede.

For me, it's a shame but understandable that Del isn't quite so effective on the left. Then we could play both and we'd be a far more rounded side.

Alternatively, we play Kone and Del and have opposition flying at our full backs all day.

Yep Lennon brings something no one else can, natural defensive balance from a winger. Last season crap, Lennon comes in and we become tighter and consistent. Newcastle away, win. Spurs at home, look tighter and get a positive point. I'm not saying it's all because of Lennon because it's not but what's important is you have one side locked down. That's why Pienaar and Baines worked because Pienaar kept the shape defensively. I think Martinez will maybe try Cleverley for that though he still comes in a bit too much but he's a very clever footballer Tom so could make it work.

Kone? he can do one on the left because like you said, going forward yeah we are sound, defensively he's offered nothing for the balance.

In all of this I'm not saying we should drop Del either, he's done great this season and well more than we could have dreamed of. Yesterday was a little sample of where you can play Del the creative and Tom gives the balance and then others you can play Lennon for balance and Mirallas for the creative. Having 2 creative wide men without no responsibility to defend is where we've come unstuck imo

 

[davek]

So then the argument should be that he's got the strategy spot-on against the bigger sides (united at home the exception but there were extenuating circumstances) and wrong against the smaller teams, which is why we chucked all the points away?

Bringing on Osman yesterday was a huge statement of a shift of ideas. Four weeks ago, that would have been Kone or Mirallas, or even Lennon. He brought Osman on because, rather than play 100 mile per hour football, he trusted our forward line enough to get a winner in controlled fashion, rather than the mental gung-ho of Bournemouth / Stoke etc.

Clear shift in tactics and a man who had learned from his mistakes. He even did it last year with the introduction of Lennon - a player who is more than comfortable doing the dirty work (to the point he could fill at Right Back).

Newcastle, Tottenham, City - look more solid with players who bring balance to the side. Anomaly in this sequence of results? Stoke, where everything just screamed chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge.

No, he didn't get them wrong. We've either won or drawn against those clubs for the most part. The draws have also been a vindication of the open play against those teams as we got ourselves ahead and created multiple chances, and only for the poorest of goal keeping form we've seen for years would have taken most of those nine draws as wins.

Martinez has the balance just right.

 

[davek]

We've missed his organisational skills at the back. He makes players look better when he plays alongside them.

I will say this: Stones seems to play a lot less waywardly when he's about. I dont think that's a matter of his intervention though, it just appears that he (Stones) becomes more conservative in his presence.

Maybe they have ESP.

 

[Kiwi]

Not sure I agree that we have very few 'in the middle'. Coleman, McCarthy, mirallas, Lennon, naismith, baines, cleverley, and Kone all fall into that bracket for me, being 25-32. That's not including Oviedo, Gibson and mcgeady who are in the same bracket but have rarely been used.

Perhaps. Martinez has brought in Lennon and Cleverley who I tbh had forgotten about which resolves it somewhat, if Naismith goes we need another though.

 

[Blue Cheese]

So how do you judge his tenure so far? everyone has differing ideals.

Just going to put this out there but the fact that nearly half the fanbase wants him gone surely must say something?

I'm actually buying in to his long term plan which is a big turnaround for me, fookin exciting times though

 

[paulbefc]

So how do you judge his tenure so far? everyone has differing ideals.

Just going to put this out there but the fact that nearly half the fanbase wants him gone surely must say something?

I'm actually buying in to his long term plan which is a big turnaround for me, fookin exciting times though

?

 

[orly]

No, he didn't get them wrong. We've either won or drawn against those clubs for the most part. The draws have also been a vindication of the open play against those teams as we got ourselves ahead and created multiple chances, and only for the poorest of goal keeping form we've seen for years would have taken most of those nine draws as wins.

Martinez has the balance just right.

He has the balance right now as we are getting better results.

He had the balance wrong before when we were getting poor results.

Pretty straightforward and backed up by... you'd guessed it... facts.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Only thing to be taken from that table is the utterly outstanding scoring record of Magaye Gueye.......

I don't even REMEMBER that goal!