Roberto Martinez discussion

[Lowste]

Glad to see this thread is alive and kicking again

 

[evertony]

If you can't see that Martinez is building something special here then either get to Specsavers or try dominoes or darts.

The two additional signings this week in Foulds and Shania show a bit of foresight.....billion pound players don't always work, much more satisfying when a gem of a find comes through. From small acorns as they say.....

 

[MikeH72]

What a riveting discussion this has been tonight

 

[blulouie]

The problem I have with Martinez above all Is his stubbornness. Anyone with 2 eyes can see that Howard is finished yet he persists with playing him out of either blind loyalty or fear of upsetting a member of the clique in the dressing room (alongside osman, Jagielka, Barry and Hibbert).

You then add in how his blind all out attack philosophy backfires on us more often than not hence the 11th place finish last season and our current league standing. I still don't believe he's the right man for the job long term but part of me thinks the league cup has our name on it which will keep him in a job for the next 5 years no matter if we finish 15th in every season as "he won us the cup".

Who would you like to see replace him mate ?....just asking like.

 

[Pacman]

Who would you like to see replace him mate ?....just asking like.

Koeman or the Chile coach would be my two choices, with Flores from Watford an outsider choice. I like Martinez as a person he's a fantastic bloke and is very respectfu/speaks well of our club/it's great history, but I just think he's too stubborn to his philosophy and won't budge on it. Unless your up against the top 6 teams he will go all out attack which is suicidal in the current nature of our league, the tv deal has made most clubs outside the bottom 3/4 clubs competitive with dangerous attacking players, and it's costing us dear. Add in the Howard/Kone scenarios it makes you wonder long term will he ever reach this current sides potential, I would love him too but I just can't see it.

 

[Goat]

 

[vagant59]

That's all well and good Paul, but the average starting age this season is older than the season we finished 5th. I think I might have said that now about 20 times.

There's tons of experience in the squad. Our average age is comparative to the rest of the league, the same as West Ham for instance.

It's just a crap excuse as far as I'm concerned. The stats back that up.

Surely if your are saying that our poor defending is down to youth and inexperience, then you adjust our formation and our tactics to compensate

 

[Lanolin]

Old players get older and young players get older.
I'm not too bothered about what the stats say, the stats can be interpreted and spun however you want to spin them.
From a subjective point of view, we have players on two sides of a spectrum, and very few in the middle.
We have the veterans, in Tim Howard, Barry, Jags and Baines who comprise our experienced players who have been around the block. In that group we also have Hibbert, Pienaar and Osman who haven't played much and don't have too much in the way of a future at the club with retirements or contracts ending by the close of the season in my opinion.
We also have a large swathe of under 24s who comprise some key players for us in McCarthy, Ross, Lukaku, Deulofeu , Stones with the likes of Besic Galloway, Fumes Mori on the fringes. Now these players are all key players to the team and have some level of inexperience as they are still learning the game and becoming complete players.
No matter the experience of the veterans, when you rely on youthful players to be key players, with there's always an element of inexperience to the team.
If I was to criticise the manager it would be that there isn't enough players in their prime in the squad and that he gives Howard far too much faith, the man should be out on his ear.

Now you point to the season where we came fifth as a guideline that these players were ready, simply put if they were ready, we would have finished fourth instead of bottling it at the final hurdle.
There's no getting round the fact that that the results haven't been good enough, but when you compare how we play compared to the first season, we have seen far less worldies and goals from direct free kicks, we no longer rely on them as we create plenty of chances from open play and are capable of opening every team from the best to the worst up. We haven't got the defending quite right yet, but the last two games as well as some of what we have seen over his tenure is that he can set up a team solidly defensively but hasn't had the consistency in doing it.

Gain that defensive solidity more consistently, maintain our attacking threat and the results will come and we'll move up the league table, we really aren't too far from the European places as we stand.

Not sure I agree that we have very few 'in the middle'. Coleman, McCarthy, mirallas, Lennon, naismith, baines, cleverley, and Kone all fall into that bracket for me, being 25-32. That's not including Oviedo, Gibson and mcgeady who are in the same bracket but have rarely been used.

 

[Goat]

Koeman or the Chile coach would be my two choices, with Flores from Watford an outsider choice. I like Martinez as a person he's a fantastic bloke and is very respectfu/speaks well of our club/it's great history, but I just think he's too stubborn to his philosophy and won't budge on it. Unless your up against the top 6 teams he will go all out attack which is suicidal in the current nature of our league, the tv deal has made most clubs outside the bottom 3/4 clubs competitive with dangerous attacking players, and it's costing us dear. Add in the Howard/Kone scenarios it makes you wonder long term will he ever reach this current sides potential, I would love him too but I just can't see it.

Love the way you say the Chile coach, it just highlights how little you know and allows everybody to instantly ignore whatever you type.

Thanks for helping mate.

Oh and for the record, Southampton are 13th, Gary Monk is out of work tho or should I say, that bloke who used to manager Swansea.

 

[orly]

As I said after the Spurs game, it looks like the Stoke performance was the last straw for all concerned. There has definitely been a shift in thinking and style of play.

It's been excellent selections and circumstance that Besic has come into the side but he looks by far and away the most comfortable playing in the deep lying role next to Barry. I think McCarthy plays better a little further forward (to the extent we play with one shielding mid rather than two), Cleverly isn't good enough in the role and it robs Barkley of his favoured position when he plays there.

Our in-form, best midfield 3 at the moment is probably Barry / Besic / Barkley. I like Del but he's looking a little tired at the moment, so might be worth having Lennon out there (particularly with Coleman out at RB). I'd still go with Mirallas on the left.

 

[davek]

You've just said that forwards lose him easily in the 18 yard box implying he's a poor defender, which I disagree with totally.

I should qualify my statement then: as a captain he makes a good defender!

 

[Goat]

I should qualify my statement then: as a captain he makes a good defender!

Jags is an outstanding talent.

Moyes trained him well.

 

[Gwladys St. Glory]

Age and experience are two different things...look how many high profile matches Rooney had by the the time he was Conor McAleny's age. If you're using age as a yardstick for anything other than what it is you've got an agenda.

 

[davek]

As I said after the Spurs game, it looks like the Stoke performance was the last straw for all concerned. There has definitely been a shift in thinking and style of play.

It's been excellent selections and circumstance that Besic has come into the side but he looks by far and away the most comfortable playing in the deep lying role next to Barry. I think McCarthy plays better a little further forward (to the extent we play with one shielding mid rather than two), Cleverly isn't good enough in the role and it robs Barkley of his favoured position when he plays there.

Our in-form, best midfield 3 at the moment is probably Barry / Besic / Barkley. I like Del but he's looking a little tired at the moment, so might be worth having Lennon out there (particularly with Coleman out at RB). I'd still go with Mirallas on the left.

Disagree. I think more likely is that what you've seen is a strategy to take account of the quality and type of opposition we've faced in the last two matches. I don't see us standing off against poorer opposition. We'll take control of the ball and be a lot more open against 'lesser' teams.

Which is right. You don't play out the same strategy all season long, situations dictate it that you don't.

 

[maccavennie]

I think you'll find he started against Chelsea only to get injured early doors....Martinez rates Besic and his place isn't really dependent on McCarthy being available or otherwise.

Of course I was aware mate Besic started but you, me and every Evertonian on this forum knows he has favourites who are undroppable and McCarthy and Barry if both fit would be in that centre midfield 2 game in game out game in game out ( as proved last season time and time again ).

I'm not arsed how Martinez stumbles upon a winning team/formula but it's important that he does and if that means someone like McCarthy is injured and Besic takes his chance with both hands then great.

Just to confirm for a bit of balance as well but Martinez says Mirallas is class, will have a massive season, won't welcome any sales yet has hasn't had a sniff. Is Martinez lying, telling the truth or chatting wham as per?

What the man says and what the man does is very very different.

I'm more than happy to let this season pan out however it may mate because he ain't getting sacked and I'm not screaming from the rooftop to be sacked. But I think it's justified he be called out on a lot of piss poor things he says and does ( for balance I'm always willing to list the positives I think he does ) and as mentioned previously, 11th in the league isn't good enough but I'm hoping beyond hope we can have a strong 2nd half of the season..