Riots in Ukraine

[bluestevon]

It's like no one learns from history though isn't it? You can see Crimea being 'sacrificed' here and Russia allowed to take over the territory in the hope that that will satisfy Putin, just as Germany was 'allowed' Czechoslovakia in the same hope.

“There are only patterns, patterns on top of patterns, patterns that affect other patterns. Patterns hidden by patterns. Patterns within patterns.
If you watch close, history does nothing but repeat itself.
What we call chaos is just patterns we haven't recognized. What we call random is just patterns we can't decipher. what we can't understand we call nonsense. What we can't read we call gibberish.
There is no free will.
There are no variables.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

strange that a author known for fight club can summarize something that well tbh, but the problem is people don't see the patterns as it involves forward thinking with reference to the past, most governments concerns don't stretch beyond the next opinion poll/election etc, to use a strange analogy, it's like the lad whose a sound lad in work and hates the way the bosses are, until he gets a promotion and he rapidly morphs into the exact thing he used to despise as he is now of that class. Something Thatcher understood very well with her attempts to create a middle class (through home ownership/share owning etc) and destroy the working classes

 

[bluestevon]

Would like to see Obama authorize export of US Crude and LNG. Putin can GTF exploiting his neighbors for a dime.

*Maybe I should calm down. It's not like every other state hasn't made the same mistake. Sad, though, seeing this error repeated over and over. 'Tis our fate as humans.

Would like to see Obama authorize export of US Crude and LNG. Putin can GTF exploiting his neighbors for a dime.

*Maybe I should calm down. It's not like every other state hasn't made the same mistake. Sad, though, seeing this error repeated over and over. 'Tis our fate as humans.

An interesting read

It's not in anyone's interests to see the situation escalate further atm mate, as for history repeating itself, it seems to be human nature to do that as shown countless times throughout the ages

 

[rascal]

If people took lessons from history, some of the 1% would be broke. War is good for business.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

If people took lessons from history, some of the 1% would be broke. War is good for business.

Who gains from it though? Forbes have updated their world rich list this week, and I can't think of many from the top 10 that would gain from a war.

Bill Gates


$76bn


Microsoft, software

Carlos Slim


$72bn


America Movil, telecoms

Amancio Ortega


$64bn


Zara, fashion

Warren Buffet


$58.2bn


Berkshire Hathaway, investment

Larry Ellison


$48bn


Oracle, software

Charles Koch/David Koch


$40bn/$40bn


Koch Industries, various

Sheldon Adelson


$38bn


Las Vegas Sands, casinos

Christy Walton


$36.7bn


Wal-Mart, retail

Jim Walton


$34.7bn


Wal-Mart, retail

Liliane Bettencourt


$34.5bn


L'Oreal, retail

 

[SerenityNigh]

If people took lessons from history, some of the 1% would be broke. War is good for business.

Are you suggesting that the 1% have learned from history but the rest of us have not? You may give them too much credit.

 

[Ashtonian]

Who gains from it though? Forbes have updated their world rich list this week, and I can't think of many from the top 10 that would gain from a war.

Bill Gates


$76bn


Microsoft, software

Carlos Slim


$72bn


America Movil, telecoms

Amancio Ortega


$64bn


Zara, fashion

Warren Buffet


$58.2bn


Berkshire Hathaway, investment

Larry Ellison


$48bn


Oracle, software

Charles Koch/David Koch


$40bn/$40bn


Koch Industries, various

Sheldon Adelson


$38bn


Las Vegas Sands, casinos

Christy Walton


$36.7bn


Wal-Mart, retail

Jim Walton


$34.7bn


Wal-Mart, retail

Liliane Bettencourt


$34.5bn


L'Oreal, retail

That is modern days though. The people who would benefit are the people running the countries, the men behind the governments. the arms dealers, the Media, Stock Markets, economies if all out war broke etc

the reason why noone profits these days is that there are no wars to profit from, capitalism has replaced war mongering. The last great example of an economy built on war was Germany in the 1930's.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Are you suggesting that the 1% have learned from history but the rest of us have not? You may give them too much credit.

It's too easy to suggest that isn't it? I mean the main beneficiaries of war (that I can see) are those involved in the military industry, and the banks that finance it all.

How many people on here argued against military budget cuts or complained when BAe jobs left Britain? It's too easy to blame a mythical 1% imo.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That is modern days though. The people who would benefit are the people running the countries, the men behind the governments. the arms dealers, the Media, Stock Markets, economies if all out war broke etc

the reason why noone profits these days is that there are no wars to profit from, capitalism has replaced war mongering. The last great example of an economy built on war was Germany in the 1930's.

So what would those groups gain from a war in Ukraine?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

It's too easy to suggest that isn't it? I mean the main beneficiaries of war (that I can see) are those involved in the military industry, and the banks that finance it all.

How many people on here argued against military budget cuts or complained when BAe jobs left Britain? It's too easy to blame a mythical 1% imo.

The main beneficiaries of war tend to be those who carve up the natural resources afterwards & re-build what they've flattened.

 

[magicjuan]

Who gains from it though? Forbes have updated their world rich list this week, and I can't think of many from the top 10 that would gain from a war.

Bill Gates


$76bn


Microsoft, software

Carlos Slim


$72bn


America Movil, telecoms

Amancio Ortega


$64bn


Zara, fashion

Warren Buffet


$58.2bn


Berkshire Hathaway, investment

Larry Ellison


$48bn


Oracle, software

Charles Koch/David Koch


$40bn/$40bn


Koch Industries, various

Sheldon Adelson


$38bn


Las Vegas Sands, casinos

Christy Walton


$36.7bn


Wal-Mart, retail

Jim Walton


$34.7bn


Wal-Mart, retail

Liliane Bettencourt


$34.5bn


L'Oreal, retail

Took a long time for the involvement of many finance houses, the Bush family and a couple of popes to be made public, long after WW2
We don't know what company owns what these days, but only those with serious money can hedge bets and make a lot of money from war
Goes all the way back to the Rothschilds and the Napoleonic wars, go google

 

[SerenityNigh]

That is modern days though. The people who would benefit are the people running the countries, the men behind the governments. the arms dealers, the Media, Stock Markets, economies if all out war broke etc

the reason why noone profits these days is that there are no wars to profit from, capitalism has replaced war mongering. The last great example of an economy built on war was Germany in the 1930's.

Not sure what you're getting at here...

I think what @Bruce Wayne is after is that there the powerful have much more to be gained from peace/free trade than war. I would think this is true in all eras, not just the present, but I may be overreaching.

Certainly it can be seen that those with most power today gain the least by their power (Kim Jong Il/Kim Jong Un), and those that gain the most are in nations with the least centralized power. Maybe this is a passing trend in the current era, but I think many in the US see this to be a universal truth. Putin, I suspect, would disagree with this claim, but there is much cultural history to understand to get at why the US would agree and Russia would oppose free trade vs concentration of power.

*Would love to see a chart of concentration of power vs. per capita wealth in modern states < starts searching >

 

[SerenityNigh]

The main beneficiaries of war tend to be those who carve up the natural resources afterwards & re-build what they've flattened.

Short term gains all these, and very expensive

 

[rascal]

Are you suggesting that the 1% have learned from history but the rest of us have not? You may give them too much credit.

Well they're not daft.

Engineer a war + get tax-payers to foot the bill with ludicrous spending on defence budgets, (including £2.5bn on aircraft that doesn't even work, but we have to pay for anyway) = profit.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Short term gains all these, and very expensive

For who?

How about if you say invaded a State with large quantities of natural resources, once you'd flattened their tin pot 'dictator' you carved up the distribution of these resources "amongst your own" and allowed the new fledgling state to spend their slice of the proceeds on major rebuilding projects, the contracts for the which went to some more "of your own".....expensive indeed...

 

[SerenityNigh]

Granted, an idea such as a "Democracy Index" is more than a bit subjective, and most of this research stems from Western states, but nevertheless: