Playing Devils Advocate

[davek]

The thing is, I doubt you'll find anyone in the club that will spin this summer as one they wanted.

Back in May I'm sure that we wanted Kirkby to go through and to bring in some real quality.

Kirkby has obviously encountered some problems, and the transfers this summer havn't gone well at all. We're bringing in players now but I doubt they're ones Moyes wanted back in May at all. Hopefully a marquee signing will be made before the window closes.

However as I've said before, we can't change what has already gone. All we can do is work with what we have. The people writing off this season already are crazy. We've made mistakes, of that there is little doubt but I don't mind people making mistakes providing they are learnt from. No one in life is perfect. One thing people have forgotten this summer is that we are in territory now that we havn't been in for over 20 years. It's safe to say that just as we lack experience of the very top on the pitch, we also lack the experience off the pitch.

So lets learn from this summer as a club and go on to bigger things as a result. Remember it was said by many that we'd blown our one and only chance against Villareal and Bucharest but we've come back much stronger and had a fine run in Europe last season. Moyes is learning all the time, as I'm sure the club are, what's required to compete at the very top.

I'm staying on for the ride. Are you?

 

[manxtoffee]

The lofty PL finishes and the European adventures EFC have enjoyed in the last few years were a foundation well worth building on, instead without building on that, the optimism is fading fast.... because I believe the men at the club(who matter) have totally forgotten what ingredient brings success....

However hard it is, take a good look at how UTD built up their empire....

 

[Goat]

Exactly that!

The lofty finishes EFC have enjoyed in the last few years were a foundation well worth building on, instead without building on that, the optimism is fading fast.... because I believe the men at the club(who matter) have totally forgotten what ingredient brings success....

However hard it is, take a good look at how UTD built up their empire....

Wrong example im afraid, UTD always had a major advantage over everybody, whether it was the Munich Crash or the fact that they had Big names, when there wasnt big names ie Best or maybe it was the early EC they won, but they always were the team to follow, they always got the press, they were always condsidered a BIG club, even when they spent years in the lower tiers. They went 26 years without winning the league and its only down to a young and excellent scottish manager that they got success, but he had the funds and the worldwide appeal to help him.

p.s u take away the trophys SAF has won and UTD are nothing more than a Forest, a team that had a good few years and won the EC.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

The thing is, I doubt you'll find anyone in the club that will spin this summer as one they wanted.

Back in May I'm sure that we wanted Kirkby to go through and to bring in some real quality.

Kirkby has obviously encountered some problems, and the transfers this summer havn't gone well at all. We're bringing in players now but I doubt they're ones Moyes wanted back in May at all. Hopefully a marquee signing will be made before the window closes.

However as I've said before, we can't change what has already gone. All we can do is work with what we have. The people writing off this season already are crazy. We've made mistakes, of that there is little doubt but I don't mind people making mistakes providing they are learnt from. No one in life is perfect. One thing people have forgotten this summer is that we are in territory now that we havn't been in for over 20 years. It's safe to say that just as we lack experience of the very top on the pitch, we also lack the experience off the pitch.

So lets learn from this summer as a club and go on to bigger things as a result. Remember it was said by many that we'd blown our one and only chance against Villareal and Bucharest but we've come back much stronger and had a fine run in Europe last season. Moyes is learning all the time, as I'm sure the club are, what's required to compete at the very top.

I'm staying on for the ride. Are you?

Don't think we can really say, don't worry its all good, when all we are doing is papering over the cracks.

How is this new territory though? We have gone into this season completely unequipped and we are now scrambling to sign unknowns and journeymen to scrap for points. Moyes' comments are weak and negative and just point to doing what we can to survive. That's not good enough for me, also the claim that the EGM is going to be about Kirkby and nothing else will be spoke about is even more disheartening.

 

[TX Bill]

We're all gonna die !!!

 

[GhostOfDixie]

We're all gonna die !!!

Come on mate, you can't blame any Evertonian for feeling a little bit cheated at the moment.

Whatever camp you fall into, the excuses are starting to wear a little thin, and maybe those guys on TW are right, and have been along - and we have just been naive to think that we were in good hands, when its obvious we are not.

Why are we feeling cheated? Because there are so many unanswered questions.

Why did Wyness leave?
Why did Ian Ross tell fans that its all Moyes' fault?
Why have we only started to sign bargain bin players?
Why did the OS report on the main news that Moutinho is a player we were after? Season ticket sales boost ploy?
Why hasn't Moyes signed his contract?
Why have the prices of all the tickets gone up? Yet the product has been diluted?
Why was AJ sold with no replacement lined up?

Do you know what I mean?

 

[TX Bill]

I do know what you mean Ghost.

I'd be lying if I said that even TX Bill, optimistic Evertonian, wasn't a bit worried at how things have regressed over the past several months.

But I'm also one of those types that doesn't worry too much about things I have no control over.

I think we'll get it right and as Bruce said, hopefully learn from this.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I do know what you mean Ghost.

I'd be lying if I said that even TX Bill, optimistic Evertonian, wasn't a bit worried at how things have regressed over the past several months.

But I'm also one of those types that doesn't worry too much about things I have no control over.

I think we'll get it right and as Bruce said, hopefully learn from this.

Well I suppose I take it more personally than others than. But I have followed Everton since I was little, and I am not happy with how it is going, and I honestly believe the reason nothing is getting done, is because not enough people believe they can make a difference, hence nobody does anything, and therefore nothing changes.

 

[manxtoffee]

Wrong example im afraid, UTD always had a major advantage over everybody, whether it was the Munich Crash or the fact that they had Big names, when there wasnt big names ie Best or maybe it was the early EC they won, but they always were the team to follow, they always got the press, they were always condsidered a BIG club, even when they spent years in the lower tiers. They went 26 years without winning the league and its only down to a young and excellent scottish manager that they got success, but he had the funds and the worldwide appeal to help him.

p.s u take away the trophys SAF has won and UTD are nothing more than a Forest, a team that had a good few years and won the EC.

Provide me with a good example then....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Don't think we can really say, don't worry its all good, when all we are doing is papering over the cracks.

How is this new territory though? We have gone into this season completely unequipped and we are now scrambling to sign unknowns and journeymen to scrap for points. Moyes' comments are weak and negative and just point to doing what we can to survive. That's not good enough for me, also the claim that the EGM is going to be about Kirkby and nothing else will be spoke about is even more disheartening.

I didn't say that everything was good. What I said was that I doubt anyone at the club will suggest such a thing.

What I'm trying to say is that in any business, when you enter new territory, and bidding for the quality of players we have done is new territory, I think it's almost inevitable that mistakes will be made. Anyone that tells me they havn't made mistakes in life has never tried anything (or is a lier).

Now once you make that assumption that mistakes will be made the question then becomes how you deal with those mistakes. On the one hand you can take an iterative approach, learn from each mistake you make and develop. On the other hand you can make a mistake, assume your approach is wrong, tear things up and start again.

I believe the first approach is what the best organisations do. The latter approach is common with the likes of Newcastle who chop and change at every opportunity.

We as fans have an important role to play in this process, and it's one that I've long advocated. It's important however to understand that role and its implications. If we come here, and indeed the AGM, and act with short-term blinkers on, shouting about how its all crap, that we've been told this and that, and that xyz should be sacked it will only lead to the short-term thinking that will ensure our club never reaches the top. We simply don't have the money to tear up the business plan every other season.

If fans are happy to go along with the process of incremental improvement and are happy to buy into the plan Moyes and the club has to get to the top then by all means offer up suggestions for improvement (I think as a fanbase we have the intellect to be of great help), but any knee jerk reactions aren't going to help, in fact despite no doubt good intentions they will eventually do nothing but harm.

Show a little patience is all I ask.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

I think we'll get it right and as Bruce said, hopefully learn from this.

On what basis though? What makes you think its all gonna go right? And whens it gonna happen?

Optimism is fine as long as its not blind optimism.

What about the club as we stand now makes you think we will get it right when we havent come close so far since end of last season.

I'm not being all negative and saying we are [Poor language removed] and gonna get relegated but what started off as very high hopes at the end of the season have shrunk rapidly with every passing week.

Getting it right to me suggests doing what is neccasary to either improve or at worst stay the same. I see very little at the moment to suggest this happening unfortunatly.

Ive been saying to myself for months that the players will come, the contracts will be signed and the points will be won but when is it time to stop dreaming of what could be and face the harsh reality of what is.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

I didn't say that everything was good. What I said was that I doubt anyone at the club will suggest such a thing.

What I'm trying to say is that in any business, when you enter new territory, and bidding for the quality of players we have done is new territory, I think it's almost inevitable that mistakes will be made. Anyone that tells me they havn't made mistakes in life has never tried anything (or is a lier).

Now once you make that assumption that mistakes will be made the question then becomes how you deal with those mistakes. On the one hand you can take an iterative approach, learn from each mistake you make and develop. On the other hand you can make a mistake, assume your approach is wrong, tear things up and start again.

I believe the first approach is what the best organisations do. The latter approach is common with the likes of Newcastle who chop and change at every opportunity.

We as fans have an important role to play in this process, and it's one that I've long advocated. It's important however to understand that role and its implications. If we come here, and indeed the AGM, and act with short-term blinkers on, shouting about how its all crap, that we've been told this and that, and that xyz should be sacked it will only lead to the short-term thinking that will ensure our club never reaches the top. We simply don't have the money to tear up the business plan every other season.

If fans are happy to go along with the process of incremental improvement and are happy to buy into the plan Moyes and the club has to get to the top then by all means offer up suggestions for improvement (I think as a fanbase we have the intellect to be of great help), but any knee jerk reactions aren't going to help, in fact despite no doubt good intentions they will eventually do nothing but harm.

Show a little patience is all I ask.

Adi, I don't think the club, sorry the club don't give a stuff about the fans, never have done and never will.

They don't listen to the fans, they don't give the fans what they want, and they don't learn from their mistakes. I remember the 95 cup final ticket debacle when they decided to let anyone who had the stubs to get 4 tickets, so basically if you didn't go to any of the games you could still get a cup final ticket. Having spent 14 hours in a queue you kind of get pissed off.

Now I see the club being run in a very similar manner, not listening to fans, making decisions that don't make sense. Its not just signings, its everything. This summer has been a catastrophe in terms of merchandising, season tickets, signings, contracts, marketing, advertising, PR, communications. Its all been a shocker, and the club need to be made accountable and come out and make some decisive decisions with regards to how this club is going to be run, because believe me, its not going in the right direction at the moment.

 

[Goat]

I think we have been patient mate, we have been told to be patient on this forum and also been told to "Watch this space", every1 has a limit to how much they can take, im near the end of mine, 1 and half days to save our season? Over-reaction? The table and 2 home defeats surely backs me up to some degree?

If we dont sign anybody, i will still be there May, whether its needing points for Europe or needing points to stay up or even needing points just to make us feel better. But when we look back, will we be thinking, yea we did ok or will we be thinking we missed a big chance. Time will tell.

 

[TX Bill]

Well I'll emphasize that I said I "think" we'll get it right.

Obviously not a guarantee.

While things aren't good. I don't think they're near as bad as some are making them out to be.

I wouldn't call that blind. I'd just say that much of the negativity has been based on pure speculation and nothing more.

Conspiracy theories abound when it comes to Everton without a shred of evidence.

I'm just one who happens not to buy into all these theories that have been bandied about.

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Yeah, we do well in the face of adversity, but why? Why don't we take the bull by the horns? We didn't need to go out and sign Pele-esque players, we have gotten as far as we have so far without doing that, so why over stretch? I would rather we pick up young talent, and some players who would make a difference without spending too much money or wading into some unsavoury agent territory.

But we haven't have we, and now we are working with unknowns, and lets be honest Plan C players. Even Saha is rumoured to be dead now, as is the Obinha deal. So you have to ask what the hell is going on? Can the manager negotiate? Can the chairman?

I will give credit where its due, but there isn't a club like us, ever since the days of Muller and Ravanelli, we just don't do transfer business well. We just don't seem to learn, I mean we signed Yak, he was a top player, what's the problem with everyone else?