Ozil quits Germany

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

I'm actually glad he chose to quit the way he did

Yeah, he could have lied and done it differently, but then that would be evading the issue, which only helps the men in suits

It sounds like he's said what needed to be said

 

[larrygobfiend]

It's weird to rise above hate and be diplomatic? When did that happen?

As you know he's a guy with Turkish parents who was born and raised in Germany. He's a muslim who's been openly criticised by his "fellow Germans" for taking a selfie at Mecca (not the bingo) and meeting the president of the country of his ancestors. He feels he is judged differently and you think the best solution is to be diplomatic and just crack on as if nothing has happened? What message would that send to German/Turkish children who feel marginalised and look up to him?

 

[Billy Dean]

I've seen Özil play live, he's like Henry & Le Tissier in that he often appears just lounging around, which the uneducated football fan might interpret as lazy. But, like Henry & Le Tiss, he's reading the game and waiting for the right moment to burst into action.

The 'lazy' style plus his turkishness was already a combi which would attract the haters, but him visiting Erdogan and sharing his selfie at Mecca was the final straw for some of the more rabid fanbase.

While there is a profound issue of Islam's influence in Germany, it shouldn't mix with football. I'm on Özil's side on this one and understand his decision. Saying that, his very long statement (much longer than posted here) is arguably unnecessarily fanning the flames, among other things he's laying into the DFB boss. A more diplomatic way to quit would be to just do it Shearer or Rooney style and say you're gonna focus only on club football now to better increase the chances of a longer playing career. Leave the politics for the autobiography later.

But I do understand why he wanted to make that statement. There may be justification for concern about Islam in Germany, but there's never justification to dish out hate & abuse to anyone, nevermind one of our World Champions.

What is the issue with Islam in Germany? Genuine question. I live in Germany. I can't say I've noticed any issues, but maybe I'm just ignorant. I did some volunteering last year with a human rights group and there was an Egyptian Christian there talking about how she was persecuted in Egypt by muslims, and another volunteer (German) said that this would start happening in Germany too if the Islamification of Germany continues, which I thought was a ridiculous thing to say lol Is that what people here are worried about?

 

[toffee-L]

I get why he made this decision, and the abuse he receives because of his background is ludicrous, but he is an easy target because of his perceived effort on the pitch.

He was very fortunate to even be in the squad for this world Cup, he disappeared for arsenal why they bent over and gave him an enormous contract and a lot of their fans are suspicious by the amount of games he misses through sickness.

I see this as more of "jump before you are pushed" situation. Bottom line is the effort he puts into matches is just nowhere near good enough.

 

[dholliday]

As you know he's a guy with Turkish parents who was born and raised in Germany. He's a muslim who's been openly criticised by his "fellow Germans" for taking a selfie at Mecca (not the bingo) and meeting the president of the country of his ancestors. He feels he is judged differently and you think the best solution is to be diplomatic and just crack on as if nothing has happened? What message would that send to German/Turkish children who feel marginalised and look up to him?

It would send them a positive message to be better than those who hate you.

What is the issue with Islam in Germany? Genuine question. I live in Germany. I can't say I've noticed any issues, but maybe I'm just ignorant. I did some volunteering last year with a human rights group and there was an Egyptian Christian there talking about how she was persecuted in Egypt by muslims, and another volunteer (German) said that this would start happening in Germany too if the Islamification of Germany continues, which I thought was a ridiculous thing to say lol Is that what people here are worried about?

As this is a football thread, mate, it's not the place for it. I was born in Germany, and been back since 2005. I've plenty of experience with Islam, and its influence. Some positive, some neutral, some negative. It's a massive debate, the conclusion of which is that yes, a too-strict religion can become an problematic issue in a secular society the more it spreads, and there is plenty of evidence this is happening with Islam in Germany. The criticism however should be on the religious-doctrine itself, not on the majority of people who follow it in a law-abiding fashion (for that would be prejudice, as has happened against Özil).

The complications arise when folk from that religion aren't law-abiding. Depending on how society reacts it can breed prejudice against all people following said religion (which is what is happening, again hence Özil being unfairly demonised). As debate against that doctrine is often shouted down as being itself prejudiced, the debate regresses into actual prejudice against peoples.

While I did say I'm on Özil's side on this thing because I don't support prejudice against peoples of any kind, the above is also why a rise-above-it attitude can help. Instead what he's done is effectively drawn sides. This only adds to the potential for conflict. i.e. you push me, I push back. Forever. Until one drops.

 

[Yid4life]

His eyes are still offside.

 

[Toffeeslam]

Thing is Thomas Mueller was crap and did nothing and same goes for Mats Hummels, Mario Gomez, Toni Cruz, Jerome Boateng and none of them got the same abuse as Ozil did.

Gundogan got booed when he came on too so I am inclined to think that those two are singled out due to more sinister reasons and Ozil just called it out

 

[Billy Dean]

It would send them a positive message to be better than those who hate you.




As this is a football thread, mate, it's not the place for it. I was born in Germany, and been back since 2005. I've plenty of experience with Islam, and its influence. Some positive, some neutral, some negative. It's a massive debate, the conclusion of which is that yes, a too-strict religion can become an problematic issue in a secular society the more it spreads, and there is plenty of evidence this is happening with Islam in Germany. The criticism however should be on the religious-doctrine itself, not on the majority of people who follow it in a law-abiding fashion (for that would be prejudice, as has happened against Özil).

The complications arise when folk from that religion aren't law-abiding. Depending on how society reacts it can breed prejudice against all people following said religion (which is what is happening, again hence Özil being unfairly demonised). As debate against that doctrine is often shouted down as being itself prejudiced, the debate regresses into actual prejudice against peoples.

While I did say I'm on Özil's side on this thing because I don't support prejudice against peoples of any kind, the above is also why a rise-above-it attitude can help. Instead what he's done is effectively drawn sides. This only adds to the potential for conflict. i.e. you push me, I push back. Forever. Until one drops.

Fair enough, I guess its not the place for this debate, but to me it sounds like a dangerous path to go down.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Looked like he quite playing for Germany midway through the World cup to be fair. Not sure he burst out of a gentle jog.

 

[ilikecheese]

"There may be justification for concern about Islam in Germany"

And you claim to be some left of center centrist. SMFH.

 

[dholliday]

Fair enough, I guess its not the place for this debate, but to me it sounds like a dangerous path to go down.

And you claim to be some left of center centrist. SMFH.

I'm responding to Billy's question asking what the issue in Germany is. I've responded to such a hot question as fairly as possible, using my own experience plus evidence from respectable publications, such as FOCUS which show the results of a mainstream poll saying 70% of Germans have concern.

Shall we pretend this concern isn't there?

That Billy liked your post tells me both of you would prefer to not hear about such things. That's fine if yous don't wanna know, but then don't ask questions like what is the issue with Islam in Germany and then claim it's a genuine question. A genuine question would be genuinely interested in an answer.

To understand the Özil situation one needs to understand that such things like that poll exist. But as it's a football thread I'll just repeat the important bit from my original post:

Özil is being unfairly demonised...I'm on Özil's side

and we'll leave it there, I reckon.

 

[ilikecheese]

I'm responding to Billy's question asking what the issue in Germany is. I've responded to such a hot question as fairly as possible, using my own experience plus evidence from respectable publications, such as FOCUS which show the results of a mainstream poll saying 70% of Germans have concern.

Shall we pretend this concern isn't there?

That Billy liked your post tells me both of you would prefer to not hear about such things. That's fine if yous don't wanna know, but then don't ask questions like what is the issue with Islam in Germany and then claim it's a genuine question. A genuine question would be genuinely interested in an answer.

To understand the Özil situation one needs to understand that such things like that poll exist. But as it's a football thread I'll just repeat the important bit from my original post:


and we'll leave it there, I reckon.

I remember when Germans had a concern over a certain religious group once before.

 

[dholliday]

I remember when Germans had a concern over a certain religious group once before.

That old chestnut...shuts down debate quite nicely, doesn't it? Very useful like that.

If you're not shutting down knowingly, then you're making a typical student's error of judgement: for history's usefulness is not all-encompassing. It's a rough guide, not an absolute.


Özil, tho'...what a player. I saw him smash a 25-yarder in the top corner vs Ghana live in the flesh. Won the match. Been one of Germany's best players of the last 10 years. I've got his back.

 

[ilikecheese]

That old chestnut...shuts down debate quite nicely, doesn't it? Very useful like that.

If you're not shutting down knowingly, then you're making a typical student's error of judgement: for history's usefulness is not all-encompassing. It's a rough guide, not an absolute.


Özil, tho'...what a player. I saw him smash a 25-yarder in the top corner vs Ghana live in the flesh. Won the match. Been one of Germany's best players of the last 10 years. I've got his back.

Nothing to debate.

Germany should be ashamed of their treatment of Ozil.

 

[dholliday]

Nothing to debate.

Germany should be ashamed of their treatment of Ozil.

lol classic black-n-white thinking. Shut down debate, then make a prejudiced statement about an entire nation.

That'll show 'em!

I prefer to think about his silky footballing skills. His movement was dreamy.