Noticeable Improvements

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kev said:
Mmm! I think we need a negative spin on this

@davek
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The top 4 have also improved, so we are no closer to CL.

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Kever10 said:
I understand your post wasn't primarily anti Martinez and was about improvement, and In the same way, mine wasn't primarily a pro Martinez comment, I was offering a counterpoint to a lot of the Martinez negativity, which started in year 2 and still continues to build 9 months after he left. . I agree, a lot of what happened under him needed changing, which is why he was sacked and replaced. You can always improve on things unless things are perfect, and in football they rarely are. And noone can deny as of now that there have been some drastic improvements. But going back a month or so ago, that wasn't necessarily the case. Far from being better, they were just different.

My point about Joel is that Joel has always needed games and experience. I always think it's a paradox that people level a lack of experience as a negative when gaining experience is the only remedy for a lack thereof. I agreed that Martinez should have made the change earlier, and that is 1 of the biggest mistakes that cost him in the long run, as replacing Howard earlier may have given the team the confidence they seem to be finding in him now.

And you are right, I did say nearing the end of the cycle, but I said team, not just defence. That included Howard, Hibbert, Jagielka, Distin, Neville, Osman, Gibson, Jelavic, etc. Neville left, and he got 1 more good season out of Distin before he was, incorrectly in my opinion, blamed for our poor defensive start to season 2, when I believe it was Jagielka who was largely to blame. But Distin was undoubtedly not the player he was, and time was catching up with him regardless.

Anyway, point being, Martinez did have a big rebuilding job to do, and he chose to address the goals 1st and spent the majority of his budget for 2 years on who is now probably our best/most valuable player, and probably assumed, wrongly, that the defence was fine for a couple of years while Stones, Galloway and Holgate developed. To say Stones was mismanaged is an easy point to make. He's an international at 21 and was sold for £40M to 1 of the top teams in the league to the so called "best manager in the world", but don't let that detract from your point.

Fitness, we have improved, but we play a different system and so it had to. I know people who can run marathons and can't last 20 mins playing 5aside. Different needs for different goals. I'm not arguing the point, but for me, it's a tactical switch, and the idea that all of our players were overweight and out of shape as some would have you believe is frankly insane.

Set pieces, my point is a simple 1. Leighton Baines is a "dead ball expert". If 2 years of Martinez training has diminished his corner taking skills to the effect that it did, then that is some voodoo. Defensively, maybe we were vulnerable, but like I say, it's amazing what confidence and circumstances can do to a teams collective psychology. If you concede late goals in consecutive games, you are more likely to panic in a similar situation next time out. The same way keeping cleansheets, goal sprees, purple patches, undefeated streaks work, so too do all the negative things that come with the dark side. See Leicester City as a gigantic case in point.

Gueye would improve most teams, as did Kante. See Leicester City and Chelsea.

Lukaku is still scoring our goals. Martinez big gamble. But please don't tell me that we are generally better offensively than we were for anything but the last 4 months of Martinez reign, because it's just not that true.

Koeman has improved us in a few ways. He has decided to make us difficult to beat, which we started out as, and have returned to recently, he has made us more efficient and he has tried to promote a higher tempo to our play. He has also been backed with a project that has allowed him the freedom of reducing the "deadwood" from the squad with the assurance that he can build again in the summer and has a youth system which was developing nicely under Martinez, 1 of the things he was instrumental in pushing forward, to fill out the squad he has left.

My point here is that both managers were signed with entirely different objectives, regardless of how optimistic Martinez initial aspirations where. Moshiri coming in has reinvigorated the club, it's appeal and its long and short term goals.

Martinez, ultimately failed. That is undeniable. You will be an unlucky man if you are sacked on being successful. But there were other circumstances to consider, and it wasn't as simple as "Martinez is crap coz he can't defend" and "Koeman is boss coz he tells it like it is".

I just don't want people over exaggerating the "mess" that "el fraudo" left us in, and the "amazing" job Koeman has already done. I just think a bit more reason should be applied. And that isn't aimed at you perse, it is a general comment, I just happened to be replying to you.

Good conversation though man, and I appreciate a well thought out response, and you raised a lot of good points.
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Posting with reason, thought and respect. You realise you're on GOT don't you, mate?
 

I think the strides made this season have been good. I like the feel of Koeman's teams, even if we're abject we can stay in a game always giving us the opportunity to get points. When we're good we look defensively solid and capable of scoring goals against top sides. The youth are coming through, he clearly identified where we needed major surgery (CB and DM) and fitness, attitude, resilience are all improving.
 
We have undoubtedly improved this season. It's been gradual but it is clear to see. Defensively we are much more solid. Offensively we are nowhere near where Martinez had us for most of his reign. I'm not sure we will ever get that again without becoming susceptible at the back so finding a happy medium is, it seems, taking time.

The signs are good and we are sitting in an ok position at the moment. Time to kick on and then have a real go at it next season.
 

BigDunc'sFod said:
Anyone who thinks we're a better attacking side now than under Martinez is clearly on smack
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The only season this Koeman one is on track to surpass from RMs time here goal scoring wise is the 2014/15 season.

2013/14 61 goals
2014/15 48 goals
2015/16 59 goals

We currently have 34 goals, so it might edge past that 48 goal season.

We were a much more potent attacking unit then compared to now. There is no doubt about that. Koeman sets up timidly. He gets a lot of players back behind the ball and is, for that very reason, NEVER going to be a manager that will take the sort of bold decisions required to amass CL spot points totals in any season he's here.

As said before he's a steady Eddie. Just that.
 
davek said:
The only season this Koeman one is on track to surpass from RMs time here goal scoring wise is the 2014/15 season.

2013/14 61 goals
2014/15 48 goals
2015/16 59 goals

We currently have 34 goals, so it might edge past that 48 goal season.

We were a much more potent attacking unit then compared to now. There is no doubt about that. Koeman sets up timidly. He gets a lot of players back behind the ball and is, for that very reason, NEVER going to be a manager that will take the sort of bold decisions required to amass CL spot points totals in any season he's here.

As said before he's a steady Eddie. Just that.
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We've scored 34 in 23 games, that's 1.478 per game.
There are 38 league games in a season, so extrapolating forward gives 38*1.478 = 56

Time will tell, but, at current rates we'll be well past 48 goals, and not far off 59.
 
Catfish Blues said:
We've scored 34 in 23 games, that's 1.478 per game.
There are 38 league games in a season, so extrapolating forward gives 38*1.478 = 56

Time will tell, but, at current rates we'll be well past 48 goals, and not far off 59.
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We will smash the last 2 seasons, but not the freak season he had and the only decent season the relegated blimp ever had.
 
Catfish Blues said:
We've scored 34 in 23 games, that's 1.478 per game.
There are 38 league games in a season, so extrapolating forward gives 38*1.478 = 56

Time will tell, but, at current rates we'll be well past 48 goals, and not far off 59.
Click to expand...
As said, currently on target to beat only one of those season's GF totals.
 

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