Nothing has changed in the past year under Moyes

[billycopper]

Today we were second to every ball even when it had been passed or broken to our players - when a sides first touch is a pass to the opposition primary school children will run rings around you. As wet and slippery as the ground was they played on the same pitch.
Today I saw the gaping chasm Arteta left like I have never seen before. And it made me sad and frustrated.

What reason would you give for the same players who played such attractive attacking football at the start of the season not being able to string two passes together today? We've been put under pressure before, so it can't be that. And, as you said, the wet conditions didn't hamper Wigan.

 

[EvertruvianMan]

What reason would you give for the same players who played such attractive attacking football at the start of the season not being able to string two passes together today? We've been put under pressure before, so it can't be that. And, as you said, the wet conditions didn't hamper Wigan.

Ok.
Setting the side up around porridge pants Neville and a goosed Osman was inviting trouble. Not just inviting but actually pulling our own pants down and spreading our cheeks.
Giving Kone to Heitinga was suicide. Distin should have been gifted that charge and someone in midfield should have nobbled him like what opponents do to Jelavic and Mirallas every week.
We play football against sides that play football - so the sides at the top of the league and the occasional Swansea or Sunderland. When we face a bunch of fighters our bottle doesnt go, we never had any to begin with. And when that sh!t happens certain players really get narked. Fellaini cant stand being in a side being bullied off the ball so he lashes out because all he knows when he isnt allowed to play football is thuggery. Used to be great when he had a parter in crime but steadily our Moyes sides have moved away from dogs of war and looked to play the game for the sake of the game. Credit to him and us, but dogs of war won us our last trophy.

Balance.

Jelavic is too soft for my liking.
Gibson cant stay injury free.
Mirallas has a learning difficulty.
Heitinga doesnt want to be here.
Neville is flogging a dead horse - himself.

Big changes required and a settled first eleven with at least one specialist CM involved.

Wigan pressed us, didnt allow us time and made us make mistakes. Its no excuse for the multiples of bad first touches and universe of misplaces passes we made. They did to us what the early Moyes sides did - they out worked us, out desired us, and out fought us.
It was a formality and that is unforgivable.

 

[evilwebby]

What reason would you give for the same players who played such attractive attacking football at the start of the season not being able to string two passes together today? We've been put under pressure before, so it can't be that. And, as you said, the wet conditions didn't hamper Wigan.

Lack of conviction. Bottle. Fight. Call it what you will.

And that is the whole thing that everyone finds so unacceptable about today. You win some matches and lose other matches, but to show up without being prepared to fight as hard and waving a white flag from the start to finish is not just unacceptable, it's a disgrace, and a kick in the teeth to the supporters.

 

[billycopper]

One of the problems with Moyes is that he doesn't choose the side/lineup around the opposition. He plays the same players/formation no matter who the opponent is and what threat they possess.

When we played Wigan this season Kone has had tons of joy vs Heitinga, whilst Fellaini was inneffectual in behind the striker. What does Moyes do? Play the exact same lineup.


*sigh

It makes us very predictable. The opposition has all week in training to work out how to stop Fellaini, how to stop our left hand side and how to take advantage of our weakness in the air and to counter attacks. In fact, if they scout us they can watch what other teams do and copy that.

For all his hard man image Heitinga isn't a physical player and is quite easily bullied. With Fellaini you have to make him play with his back to goal and pick up the second balls. Neither of them jump very often and it's not too difficult to beat them in the air.

It seems like Gibson and Anichebe weren't 100% fit and so it limited his options today. Given that Naismith scored 9 goals in 11 league appearances for Rangers last year and that he managed 15 overall the previous season it is a bit odd that he's used as an emergency right midfielder even when our forwards go months without finding the back of the net.

 

[billycopper]

Ok.
Setting the side up around porridge pants Neville and a goosed Osman was inviting trouble. Not just inviting but actually pulling our own pants down and spreading our cheeks.
Giving Kone to Heitinga was suicide. Distin should have been gifted that charge and someone in midfield should have nobbled him like what opponents do to Jelavic and Mirallas every week.
We play football against sides that play football - so the sides at the top of the league and the occasional Swansea or Sunderland. When we face a bunch of fighters our bottle doesnt go, we never had any to begin with. And when that sh!t happens certain players really get narked. Fellaini cant stand being in a side being bullied off the ball so he lashes out because all he knows when he isnt allowed to play football is thuggery. Used to be great when he had a parter in crime but steadily our Moyes sides have moved away from dogs of war and looked to play the game for the sake of the game. Credit to him and us, but dogs of war won us our last trophy.

Balance.

Jelavic is too soft for my liking.
Gibson cant stay injury free.
Mirallas has a learning difficulty.
Heitinga doesnt want to be here.
Neville is flogging a dead horse - himself.

Big changes required and a settled first eleven with at least one specialist CM involved.

Wigan pressed us, didnt allow us time and made us make mistakes. Its no excuse for the multiples of bad first touches and universe of misplaces passes we made. They did to us what the early Moyes sides did - they out worked us, out desired us, and out fought us.
It was a formality and that is unforgivable.

I don't think Gibson was fit enough to start, so we had to use Neville and Osman really.
Kone 'marked' Heitinga. If we'd switched our centrebacks he'd have just followed him.
We did start the match by trying to get in their face but we didn't have the energy to maintain that intensity.

Jelavic is probably used to more protection from referees.
Part of the reason we got Gibson so cheaply was probably his injury record.

We presumed that the match would be a formality and that was our biggest mistake.

 

[billycopper]

Lack of conviction. Bottle. Fight. Call it what you will.

And that is the whole thing that everyone finds so unacceptable about today. You win some matches and lose other matches, but to show up without being prepared to fight as hard and waving a white flag from the start to finish is not just unacceptable, it's a disgrace, and a kick in the teeth to the supporters.

Wigan played very well and we had no answer to it. We could possibly have scrapped a bit harder but we still wouldn't have been clever enough or sophisticated enough to break them down.

 

[ToffeeDan]

That's a great question Billy. I wonder how many people fully appreciate that football is really just a game of deception - nothing more nothing less. It's the same with tennis - look at the great head-to-head matches, 30 point rallies working each other into a position where one can beat the other to the punch - so is boxing (thinking of the punch analogy), cricket with the bowler's action and batsman's skill to avoid the tricky ball and score off the lesser ones etc. etc.

So let's ask do Everton have enough deception - well there's Baines/Pienaar, then there's Mirallas, Fellaini, Jelavic (when he has the chance to deceive the defender). But there are so many problems - not enough players in the squad (mostly down to the club not having the finances - down to financial mismanagement, undercharging us fans (at least that is relative to what other clubs charge) and lack of financial acumen for off the pitch/corporate situations. This (referred to) shortage of players include some key injuries (Hibbert in the side might have meant more clean sheets) - ditto Jags and Howard were clearly missed with Heitinga and Mucha on the pitch instead - then Ossie looks burnt, Pienaar (for me an inconsistent player who shines some of the time), Fellaini (let's question his mental fortitude - sometimes he just isn't up for it or produces the odd example of red mist in between all the great things he (can) do. Then there's the constant whinge about the lack of support for Jelavic (but wait a minute Anichebe has had a good season hasn't he?).

Moyes is the one who makes the calls - the one who still believes in the Axis of Neville - the one who allows a constant stream of long balls when we all know we CAN play a decent passing game. We all saw the lack of a Plan B (not for the first time) today and the dithering substitution policy which makes me think he has his faves who won't be sacrificed (not to mention the historic lack of faith in so many stand by players who spend all season on the bench - think Plessis, can there ever have been a footballer paid so well to do so little?) - I bet Martinez tries to change it up quite a lot - and look how he turned it around from the shambles of their last game.

So it's down to poor management, tired and disillusioned players, poor tactics and the like. I blame Moyes for most of this now. He'll never be an attacking manager and yet, in building up his legacy he's not adding any trophies. He's going like Wenger I think.

It's one thing to be outplayed - it's quite another thing to lay down and accept it.

 

[billycopper]

That's a great question Billy. I wonder how many people fully appreciate that football is really just a game of deception - nothing more nothing less. It's the same with tennis - look at the great head-to-head matches, 30 point rallies working each other into a position where one can beat the other to the punch - so is boxing (thinking of the punch analogy), cricket with the bowler's action and batsman's skill to avoid the tricky ball and score off the lesser ones etc. etc.

So let's ask do Everton have enough deception - well there's Baines/Pienaar, then there's Mirallas, Fellaini, Jelavic (when he has the chance to deceive the defender). But there are so many problems - not enough players in the squad (mostly down to the club not having the finances - down to financial mismanagement, undercharging us fans (at least that is relative to what other clubs charge) and lack of financial acumen for off the pitch/corporate situations. This (referred to) shortage of players include some key injuries (Hibbert in the side might have meant more clean sheets) - ditto Jags and Howard were clearly missed with Heitinga and Mucha on the pitch instead - then Ossie looks burnt, Pienaar (for me an inconsistent player who shines some of the time), Fellaini (let's question his mental fortitude - sometimes he just isn't up for it or produces the odd example of red mist in between all the great things he (can) do. Then there's the constant whinge about the lack of support for Jelavic (but wait a minute Anichebe has had a good season hasn't he?).

Moyes is the one who makes the calls - the one who still believes in the Axis of Neville - the one who allows a constant stream of long balls when we all know we CAN play a decent passing game. We all saw the lack of a Plan B (not for the first time) today and the dithering substitution policy which makes me think he has his faves who won't be sacrificed (not to mention the historic lack of faith in so many stand by players who spend all season on the bench - think Plessis, can there ever have been a footballer paid so well to do so little?) - I bet Martinez tries to change it up quite a lot - and look how he turned it around from the shambles of their last game.

So it's down to poor management, tired and disillusioned players, poor tactics and the like. I blame Moyes for most of this now. He'll never be an attacking manager and yet, in building up his legacy he's not adding any trophies. He's going like Wenger I think.

It's one thing to be outplayed - it's quite another thing to lay down and accept it.

True. Both very good footballing sides whose players are in the shop window. Both have faults that are glaringly obvious to everyone except their respective managers. Both lacking the killer edge to land a trophy.

 

[EvertruvianMan]

I don't think Gibson was fit enough to start, so we had to use Neville and Osman really.
Kone 'marked' Heitinga. If we'd switched our centrebacks he'd have just followed him.
We did start the match by trying to get in their face but we didn't have the energy to maintain that intensity.

Jelavic is probably used to more protection from referees.
Part of the reason we got Gibson so cheaply was probably his injury record.

We presumed that the match would be a formality and that was our biggest mistake.

Not fit enough to start means not fit enough for the bench.
Any striker I have played against that tried to isolate me or the other CB got a series of sandwiches and word soon got round.
Our regulars being so goosed to be overcome by relegation fodder so easily is a sharp reminder of how bad the future and playing in the lower divisions could turn out to be.

Jelavic needs to grow a set of bollllocks and start doing his bit in the fight, he only hits the deck and everyone knows it now.
Gibson - a crocked player not good enough for the champions elect should not be good enough for us, at least not as a wannabe regular.

Complacency is one thing, but a snivelling lack of heart and belief is unforgivable. It was a perfect storm of training ground moves that paid off, amazing defensive blunders and then zero spark to change a sh!t situation after it had gone doen the sh!tttter.

I am loathe to say it but we have too much dead wood in a squad so criminally thin to begin with.

 

[ToffeeDan]

It doesn't matter if it's a club or a normal business. The same rules apply in different ways. I run a business with 11 staff (my "team" if you like). They need to be motivated to do things some don't like to do, they need proper work conditions, proper pay, leave arrangements, they are expected to work when the task is in hand but, if they do that, they are entitled to respect - time out, decent conditions, fair management etc. Unlike a football club I can't transfer them to another "employer" (obviously they can choose to move on). It's important however that they know what is expected (targets etc.) and how well we might be achieving them. We can only grow by attaining those targets and winning our "matches". Within that group of people there are some who are more willing, more able (and sometimes both) than others.

At the end of the day everything we all do in life is a Transformation Process with a target (or goal) and a plan to achieve it - it's that straightforward - in the case of our club we ask things like "why is the ball being pumped up or thrown out to the wings, just shoot a bit more" - that might help reach the "goal" more often.

For the record there are nominally more Blues than Reds so that's a great start!!

 

[EvertruvianMan]

It doesn't matter if it's a club or a normal business. The same rules apply in different ways. I run a business with 11 staff (my "team" if you like). They need to be motivated to do things some don't like to do, they need proper work conditions, proper pay, leave arrangements, they are expected to work when the task is in hand but, if they do that, they are entitled to respect - time out, decent conditions, fair management etc. Unlike a football club I can't transfer them to another "employer" (obviously they can choose to move on). It's important however that they know what is expected (targets etc.) and how well we might be achieving them. We can only grow by attaining those targets and winning our "matches". Within that group of people there are some who are more willing, more able (and sometimes both) than others.

At the end of the day everything we all do in life is a Transformation Process with a target (or goal) and a plan to achieve it - it's that straightforward - in the case of our club we ask things like "why is the ball being pumped up or thrown out to the wings, just shoot a bit more" - that might help reach the "goal" more often.

For the record there are nominally more Blues than Reds so that's a great start!!

I'd take a team full of reds that gave 2 fudges about the side they represent compared to a few cheque takers ruining the game for the rest. Professionalism.
Motivation is a funny thing, would I be motivated to look for a move to get £100k a week or be happy to be motivated to maintain my £65k per week.
My kids are in school for three times the hours I train a day and the wife gets them saturday, or i'm not married and i'm tapping ass like a catholic priest in the 60's.
Performance related pay is a thing of the past, Europe has just killed that, Where does pay grade lose parity with responsibility?

And targets met dont work because greyhound trainers will explain a one time cather is not an every race winner.

 

[Del]

This thread has far to many words per post

 

[billycopper]

Not fit enough to start means not fit enough for the bench.
Any striker I have played against that tried to isolate me or the other CB got a series of sandwiches and word soon got round.
Our regulars being so goosed to be overcome by relegation fodder so easily is a sharp reminder of how bad the future and playing in the lower divisions could turn out to be.

Jelavic needs to grow a set of bollllocks and start doing his bit in the fight, he only hits the deck and everyone knows it now.
Gibson - a crocked player not good enough for the champions elect should not be good enough for us, at least not as a wannabe regular.

Complacency is one thing, but a snivelling lack of heart and belief is unforgivable. It was a perfect storm of training ground moves that paid off, amazing defensive blunders and then zero spark to change a sh!t situation after it had gone doen the sh!tttter.

I am loathe to say it but we have too much dead wood in a squad so criminally thin to begin with.

Where to start????!!!

Moyes would probably have preferred not to use Gibson but he was fit enough for 30 mins.
I presume that you're not speaking from Premier League experience as a defender. If Heitinga and Distin 'sandwiched' Kone it would have left acres of space for them to exploit.
What??

Maybe Jelavic is trying to win us freekicks around the box because Baines is one of our most potent goal threats?
How does not being good enough for arguably the biggest side in the world mean not good enough for us?

What??

Mucha will leave on a free, Heitinga will probably move abroad, Gueye will go back to France, Hitzlsperger will be released and Neville might retire. We'll get peanuts in transfer fees and Moyes won't blood kids, so we're going to have to do some shopping in the summer.

 

[billycopper]

It doesn't matter if it's a club or a normal business. The same rules apply in different ways. I run a business with 11 staff (my "team" if you like). They need to be motivated to do things some don't like to do, they need proper work conditions, proper pay, leave arrangements, they are expected to work when the task is in hand but, if they do that, they are entitled to respect - time out, decent conditions, fair management etc. Unlike a football club I can't transfer them to another "employer" (obviously they can choose to move on). It's important however that they know what is expected (targets etc.) and how well we might be achieving them. We can only grow by attaining those targets and winning our "matches". Within that group of people there are some who are more willing, more able (and sometimes both) than others.

At the end of the day everything we all do in life is a Transformation Process with a target (or goal) and a plan to achieve it - it's that straightforward - in the case of our club we ask things like "why is the ball being pumped up or thrown out to the wings, just shoot a bit more" - that might help reach the "goal" more often.

For the record there are nominally more Blues than Reds so that's a great start!!

To an extent it bothers me that Moyes says there are no goals or we'll try and get to 40 points and take it from there. Maybe he says something different behind closed doors and he's trying to manage expectations? If it was me I'd be looking at how many points it historically takes to reach the Champions League and that would be our points target for the season. Then, if we needed 1.6 points per match on average, we'd push harder to turn draws into wins to reach it. I'd also be giving the players goalscoring and clean sheet targets.

 

[EvertruvianMan]

.

There are a lot of sandwiches in sport, knuckle and others that have to be swallowed.
If Jela is fishing for FK's it isnt working and he should go back to scaring opposition with his instinctive finishing, not just 6 yard stuff - have a fukkkkin pop.
Biggest side in the world? You mean Man Utd? He was never even a contender, a tryer but never a fit into a side persisting with Anderson and a chronically gutted Fletcher. Evidence enough?

So far as the rest, it aint good enough. Mucha is an international that plays what 4 internationals a year. Heitinga still isnt over his WC final red and being found out in the Prem. Gueye was a stop gap filler type we hopefully wont lose loads on. Hitz we fought to sign SHORT TERM because no one would give a real contract too because he is all Gibson. And Neville is BigMac filler.
The youth setup not churning out Dunne, Ball and Rooney every year isnt their responsibility - one can only work with the unfinished gems at ones disposal. If they aint there, they aint there.