Moyes Watch @ Real Sociedad

[kithnou]

like I said moyes was pretty good at what he did, neville was crap at what he did, he's been crap at everything he has done, crap player, crap coach and now a crap pundit, luckiest man on the planet, and I had to watch him as our captain, imagine him trying to bollock arteta or fellaini, it's like junior football when the managers son got made captain even if he was tosh, you'd just tell him to [Poor language removed]. Him having a successful career is indicative of everything that is wrong with british football, and why we are light years behind other countries

Can't disagree with any of that really...

 

[davek]

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/

Jump to transfer league table 2003 to today.

No idea on wages.

And if you scroll down further than that you see agents fees, which are logged separately but part of transfers. From that you see Everton paid more than a few of the teams above us in fees paid, such as West Brom, Stoke, Hull etc.

All told the 10th highest wages / 7th highest wage payer claim is about right.

 

[paulbefc]

IIRC Everton generally spent about 10th most on transfer fees and about 7th most on wages in the PL in his last half decade or so in charge (I stand to be corrected on that). 5th-8th place finishes were a credit, but not a miracle. By that time in the job he was also time-rich, in that he was able to be in a comfort zone of having gathered all of his own players around him and have total control of decision making on the playing side, and that longevity in turn allows for the type of stability that leads to team-building and results that can undercut or offset the riches of other clubs.

There's no doubt he was of benefit to Everton, to put it mildly. But (and leaving aside his later stab in the back comments) his legacy cant be overplayed.

15th from 2003-2014 according to Dan's link. From 2006 onwards, most of the money he was spending was hard earned anyway in getting a poor side to consecutive top 6 finishes and increasing revenue. Makes sense as pretty much every window in his last 3 years here was a considerable net profit. The window Arteta left was a joke. He still had to sell to buy Jelavic the next window too. The conditions he was expected to get us top 6 finishes under were pretty horrible in all honesty. We can say he should have pushed the chairman for more funds, but we don't really know that he didn't and we also know that they didn't/don't exist anyway.

I have always argued that what he achieved in the league was truly exceptional and haven't seen a strong argument to the contrary tbh. If it wasn't all that, other managers would have done it. Plenty of managers have had good time and opportunity to do similar, on larger budgets and haven't managed it. I'm not sure that he really was ever in a comfort zone squad-wise. Every summer he had to sell his best player and replace him with someone at half the price. He never had the stability, for example, a Spurs or Liverpool manager could have in being able to offer the big names huge wages in order to keep them at the club in the way Liverpool are currently doing with Sterling.

I won't be getting into a debate as it was all said after he left anyway and I fought his corner on here for years so I cba doing it again! Fair play to him for going out of his comfort zone in Spain. As conservative as his tactics were, he doesn't shy away from a challenge and I hope he does well.

 

[Prevenger17]

I have always argued that what he achieved in the league was truly exceptional and haven't seen a strong argument to the contrary tbh. If it wasn't all that, other managers would have done it. Plenty of managers have had good time and opportunity to do similar, on larger budgets and haven't managed it. I'm not sure that he really was ever in a comfort zone squad-wise. Every summer he had to sell his best player and replace him with someone at half the price. He never had the stability, for example, a Spurs or Liverpool manager could have in being able to offer the big names huge wages in order to keep them at the club in the way Liverpool are currently doing with Sterling.

Yep. Thought he stayed a little too long and then somehow managed to leave badly, but there's no doubting he was a fine manager for us.

 

[kithnou]

Yep. Thought he stayed a little too long and then somehow managed to leave badly, but there's no doubting he was a fine manager for us.

yep agree with all that...now how to get rid of a certain Mr...

 

[davek]

15th from 2003-2014 according to Dan's link. From 2006 onwards, most of the money he was spending was hard earned anyway in getting a poor side to consecutive top 6 finishes and increasing revenue. Makes sense as pretty much every window in his last 3 years here was a considerable net profit. The window Arteta left was a joke. He still had to sell to buy Jelavic the next window too. The conditions he was expected to get us top 6 finishes under were pretty horrible in all honesty. We can say he should have pushed the chairman for more funds, but we don't really know that he didn't and we also know that they didn't/don't exist anyway.

I have always argued that what he achieved in the league was truly exceptional and haven't seen a strong argument to the contrary tbh. If it wasn't all that, other managers would have done it. Plenty of managers have had good time and opportunity to do similar, on larger budgets and haven't managed it. I'm not sure that he really was ever in a comfort zone squad-wise. Every summer he had to sell his best player and replace him with someone at half the price. He never had the stability, for example, a Spurs or Liverpool manager could have in being able to offer the big names huge wages in order to keep them at the club in the way Liverpool are currently doing with Sterling.

I won't be getting into a debate as it was all said after he left anyway and I fought his corner on here for years so I cba doing it again! Fair play to him for going out of his comfort zone in Spain. As conservative as his tactics were, he doesn't shy away from a challenge and I hope he does well.

I've said already his achievement in placing us up the table isn't in doubt. I'm merely pointing out that when all factors are taken into consideration - wages, transfer fees, time to gel a team - it wasn't like he was trying to plait sawdust. I wouldn't overestimate how good you have to be to get you half in this league. Even in this nightmare season so far I'd still back us to reach top half.

 

[paulbefc]

I've said already his achievement in placing us up the table isn't in doubt. I'm merely pointing out that when all factors are taken into consideration - wages, transfer fees, time to gel a team - it wasn't like he was trying to plait sawdust. I wouldn't overestimate how good you have to be to get you half in this league. Even in this nightmare season so far I'd still back us to reach top half.

We're a top quality side that just broke our points record and then spent £35m though. The fact we're down here despite that makes his consistency look more impressive if anything.

 

[paulbefc]

And I said I wasn't going to be drawn into a debate.

Damn, seduced by Davek yet again.

 

[RaleighBlue]

We're a top quality side that just broke our points record and then spent £35m though. The fact we're down here despite that makes his consistency look more impressive if anything.

Eh. He finished 17th in his second season.

With a far worse team than current of course. But consistency can only be viewed over the course of years. Martinez hasn't been here long enough to have any consistency, even if we were still in the top half. Takes half a decade before that can rightly be judged.

 

[paulbefc]

Eh. He finished 17th in his second season.

With a far worse team than current of course. But consistency can only be viewed over the course of years. Martinez hasn't been here long enough to have any consistency, even if we were still in the top half. Takes half a decade before that can rightly be judged.

I wasn't knocking Martinez at all mate and I agree, I said earlier that we need the same patience with Martinez that we had with Moyes.

 

[RaleighBlue]

I wasn't knocking Martinez at all mate and I agree, I said earlier that we need the same patience with Martinez that we had with Moyes.

I dig.

I just think consistency tends to be something all decent or better managers would achieve given a long period of time. Over the short term many variables will cause extreme swings. Over the long run the measure of the manager given his resources will emerge.

Whether Moyes is actually a very good manager is very difficult to judge due to the general lack of time given to managers. We don't know what a lot of these managers would be able to do given a decade of management at a club with finances similar to ours. Most of them are out on their ear after a poor month regardless of any inherent quality.

The exceptions are, of course, the truly exceptional managers (Wenger, Ferguson), the managers with loads of dosh (Ferguson again), or managers with massive amounts of luck (Ferguson class of 92). You don't get the West Ham's and Aston Villa's giving managers loads of time and because of that we really haven't established the acceptable baseline of what an 'average' manager can do given our resources over 10 years.

Moyes was very important to us, and is logically superior to average, but at the same time he was given a lot of space and time to do things his way. It would be interesting to see how much of our consistency was related specifically to Moyes, and how much it was related to stability in general.

 

[kithnou]

David Moyes. Bore drawing a home game on his way to safety.
If they had lost to Barcelona as they should have, he may well have been sacked by now.

 

[Kev The Rat]

15th from 2003-2014 according to Dan's link. From 2006 onwards, most of the money he was spending was hard earned anyway in getting a poor side to consecutive top 6 finishes and increasing revenue. Makes sense as pretty much every window in his last 3 years here was a considerable net profit. The window Arteta left was a joke. He still had to sell to buy Jelavic the next window too. The conditions he was expected to get us top 6 finishes under were pretty horrible in all honesty. We can say he should have pushed the chairman for more funds, but we don't really know that he didn't and we also know that they didn't/don't exist anyway.

I have always argued that what he achieved in the league was truly exceptional and haven't seen a strong argument to the contrary tbh. If it wasn't all that, other managers would have done it. Plenty of managers have had good time and opportunity to do similar, on larger budgets and haven't managed it. I'm not sure that he really was ever in a comfort zone squad-wise. Every summer he had to sell his best player and replace him with someone at half the price. He never had the stability, for example, a Spurs or Liverpool manager could have in being able to offer the big names huge wages in order to keep them at the club in the way Liverpool are currently doing with Sterling.

I won't be getting into a debate as it was all said after he left anyway and I fought his corner on here for years so I cba doing it again! Fair play to him for going out of his comfort zone in Spain. As conservative as his tactics were, he doesn't shy away from a challenge and I hope he does well.

Disagree that he was unable to offer big money to retain existing stars, particularly towards the end he was able to hold on to his best players for extended periods on improved big contracts - Arteta and Fellaini in particular. But also jags and howard.

 

[davek]

Laughing me bollocks off last night when Nolito slotted for that equaliser.

Boos ringing out at the end....ha ha ha. They're playing your song, Moyesie.

I'll give this feller until June before El Presidente he say 'go'.

 

[bignev23]

Least we got the [Poor language removed] who set him on fire.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...rn-arsonist-who-accidentally-8597159#rlabs=35

That was a lovely Mural that.