2019/20 Michael Keane

[Toffee-nerd]

Been brilliant these 3 games. People say we need 4 CBs but in reality if we had Mina, Keane, Holgate and a new £20-30m CB we’d probably be too stacked there.

For me we either buy a young player, keep Braithwaite as the 4th CB, or we buy someone like Gabriel and sell Keane while his stock is high.

I’d rather us spend big money on two midfielders.

Yerry hasnt exactly been injury free since being here so I do think having 4 CBs is the best scenario. Anecellotti likes to go 3 at the back to see games out as we saw today and Holgate is a young lad, having an utterly boss season, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he will need a spell out of the side at one point. It also depends on where we finish. Personally think it's a no brainer we are going to need another centre back this summer if we want to fight higher up the league and in the cups. Centre mid, and an attacking option down the right are high priority but one CB, 2 CMS and a right forward isnt that much of a stretch surely for the summer given we are finally offloading the baggage and surely there will be an imminent USM sponsorship deal for the corner flags. Hopefully we can ship out some more high earners, minimal contributors in Delph and Walcott too.

 

[carolinablue232]

Got done a couple times but also saved the game and played well overall. 3 good ones in a row. Wonder if not having fans shouting at him actually benefits Keano

 

[bernie inn]

Got done a couple times but also saved the game and played well overall. 3 good ones in a row. Wonder if not having fans shouting at him actually benefits Keano

There could be something in that, I also think him addressing the issues he’s had with depression, might be having a positive effect.

 

[Zezti]

 

[Southern Yankee toffee]

You're unlikely to win many trophies playing in a way that suits Keane which is why he needs replaced.

In the past three games he:
Got a clean sheet against the best team in the world atm. Don’t @ me. I hate the reds.
He scored a winner the next game
Then went on to deservingly win a MOTM award against the 3rd place and recent EPL championship winning team.

not saying we couldn’t possibly do better but he could be in a team that wins a trophy.

 

[Zatara]

Be great if spurs came in for him in the summer.

I think probably. If we get a good offer probably makes sense to sell.

Another good game. He really suits sitting deep, there’s never been any doubt about his ability to do that. When he got skinned by vardy in the last minute is why I’ll never fully rate him though.Every time he gets in that sort of position he’s completely useless, it’s too big a weakness to ignore.

Been brilliant these 3 games. People say we need 4 CBs but in reality if we had Mina, Keane, Holgate and a new £20-30m CB we’d probably be too stacked there.

For me we either buy a young player, keep Braithwaite as the 4th CB, or we buy someone like Gabriel and sell Keane while his stock is high.

I’d rather us spend big money on two midfielders.

Glad he’s had a bit of a resurgence after hitting some terrifying lows but ultimately just not good enough to play at the level we are aspiring to play at.

If we play deep under Ancelotti going forward then it makes sense to extend his deal if he keeps this up till the end of the season.

Having said that, im confident that we will want to play a higher line in future.

Either way, a decent fee gets him and if we can sell and sign Gabriel then it makes sense.

The question is, how much would we take for him?

 

[catcherintherye]

If we play deep under Ancelotti going forward then it makes sense to extend his deal if he keeps this up till the end of the season.

Having said that, im confident that we will want to play a higher line in future.

Either way, a decent fee gets him and if we can sell and sign Gabriel then it makes sense.

The question is, how much would we take for him?

People obviously want us to play the high line, but I'm really not sure why we would. We have been trying to play a high line for some years now and it's flopped. We look a much better team when we make sacrifices for the greater ends.

Ill be frank, I think we will consider an offer on almost any player if it's the right offer, but clearly we have a handful of players we really don't want to leave. I don't think Keane is in that, but Ancelotti clearly quite likes him.

I think we would want more than we paid for him, maybe £30m might tempt us. I would say we would want more than we would pay for Gabriel to move him on.

As you say though, playing deep he remains one of the best defenders in the game at that. He's brave, big, powerful, gets a lot of blocks in etc. As I said previously on this thread, I could easily see why a Mourinho would want to partner him with Sanchez.

 

[Lanolin]

People obviously want us to play the high line, but I'm really not sure why we would. We have been trying to play a high line for some years now and it's flopped. We look a much better team when we make sacrifices for the greater ends.

Ill be frank, I think we will consider an offer on almost any player if it's the right offer, but clearly we have a handful of players we really don't want to leave. I don't think Keane is in that, but Ancelotti clearly quite likes him.

I think we would want more than we paid for him, maybe £30m might tempt us. I would say we would want more than we would pay for Gabriel to move him on.

As you say though, playing deep he remains one of the best defenders in the game at that. He's brave, big, powerful, gets a lot of blocks in etc. As I said previously on this thread, I could easily see why a Mourinho would want to partner him with Sanchez.

I think you'll only get so far playing the way we are at the moment. The way some people have talked about it you'd think we'd cruised through the last few games never looking in any danger, but it's not true, and you won't always get away with it. You can eke out results by sitting deep and getting men behind the ball, that's hardly a revelation, we spent 10 years doing it under Moyes. Ultimately it's not the way to progress as a team though.

 

[zook]

You're unlikely to win many trophies playing in a way that suits Keane which is why he needs replaced.

Simeone's Atletico are an example to prove that it's possible tho. Although I'd still sell Keane if a good bid comes in for him.

He's definitely been performing well since the restart but our setup is ideal for a centre back like him, and you don't need to be anything spectacular to be effective in it.

 

[Zatara]

People obviously want us to play the high line, but I'm really not sure why we would. We have been trying to play a high line for some years now and it's flopped. We look a much better team when we make sacrifices for the greater ends.

Ill be frank, I think we will consider an offer on almost any player if it's the right offer, but clearly we have a handful of players we really don't want to leave. I don't think Keane is in that, but Ancelotti clearly quite likes him.

I think we would want more than we paid for him, maybe £30m might tempt us. I would say we would want more than we would pay for Gabriel to move him on.

As you say though, playing deep he remains one of the best defenders in the game at that. He's brave, big, powerful, gets a lot of blocks in etc. As I said previously on this thread, I could easily see why a Mourinho would want to partner him with Sanchez.

All true. I was taking a look at the spurs squad and if they offered a swap i couldnt even imagine who we would accept.

 

[catcherintherye]

I think you'll only get so far playing the way we are at the moment. The way some people have talked about it you'd think we'd cruised through the last few games never looking in any danger, but it's not true, and you won't always get away with it. You can eke out results by sitting deep and getting men behind the ball, that's hardly a revelation, we spent 10 years doing it under Moyes. Ultimately it's not the way to progress as a team though.

Well all of that is true but I suppose we have to be realistic where we are. We are a below par team and have been for some time now. We generally score betwen 47-55 points. Thats essentially the range we were at under Walter Smith. Becuase the league has become further elongated, that points total tends to get you 10th-8th as opposed to 10th-15th as it used to. However you can call us an average team and that would not be an unfair descriptor at all.

We then seem to have what I can only view as an arrogance that we need to try and emulate what Liverpool or City do and that we should turn our nose up at what Moyes did. They are not far off twice our points totals. You are asking a group of players to do something, that in most cases they are incapable of doing. We have tried to repeat this time and again and on each occasion fallen short. The concern i have, is that Bournemouth try to do it as well, and are going to get relegated this season as a result. To a degree Norwich try to play that way as well, they will also get relegated. My fear is, once we take the blinkers off, we are more likely to become a Bournemouth than a Liverpool.

There have been 3 exceptions to this over the last 6 years. One under Koeman, where we ditched his principles, went back to basics and played more direct for Lukaku. We have a goot 15 game run. Last season under Silva at the back end we had again another decent 13 games going back to basics. Now under Ancelotti/Ferguson we have lost 3 league games in 17 and sit 4th in the table over that period. Again it's been built on doing the basics right.


On the previous 2 occasions (Silva/Koeman) we ripped up what worked in search of this holy grail and flopped. I think we need a prolonged spell of consolidating what we have done under Ancelotti/Ferguson. Yes you have to play the margins a bit, and have a bit of luck, but for the most part you begin to establish yourselves higher up the league. This is what Wolves are doing. There's no magic in that team, but they do the basics well, play their system and keep getting better at it.

Moyes did this too under Smith. It probably took him 3-4 years to begin to move away from it. We finished 4th under Moyes doing it, but unfortunately didn't have the clout to then consolidate and kick on. We do now.

Leicester won the league doing it. Atletico Madrid won the league on a couple of occasions and were minutes away from winning the CL. You can be successful doing it. I can see an argument that in the longer term a change will have to be made, but I also think the in the short to medium term for us to move from something that works would be a naive thing to do.

 

[catcherintherye]

All true. I was taking a look at the spurs squad and if they offered a swap i couldnt even imagine who we would accept.

I'll be frank, I can't see much sense in a swap as we would want the fee for FFP, unless we did what Barca/Juve did and bump the fees up. I'm sure we'd all take Davinson Sanchez.

 

[Sverre Takleifbotten]

The truth is that if you do not have finances, you will not win many trophies. There are some exceptions, but it is not viable in the long run. Liverpool's success is correlated with an ever-increasing salary budget.

We have tried to compete with the best through playing positional football, but have not succeeded. It is not very strange that we did not succeed, when the opponents have 3 and 4 times our budget. Positional, ball possession, and counter-pressure football have largely become the template, but it is not very effective if you do not have the best players.

This has also made football incredibly boring, and less entertaining to watch. When GK and CB have the most ball touches during a match, it is not very entertaining. Ancelotti has also commented on this, and has been critical of the development.

I think Ancelotti is on the right path, but we need to become more threatening in the future - moving more directly into space. We therefore need players with high work capacity, endurance, and speed. Richarlison and DCL have these qualities, but our midfield is not very athletic. Here we must invest. When it comes to Keane, I think he will flourish with that kind of approach to football - even though he has obvious weaknesses.

 

[Lanolin]

Well all of that is true but I suppose we have to be realistic where we are. We are a below par team and have been for some time now. We generally score betwen 47-55 points. Thats essentially the range we were at under Walter Smith. Becuase the league has become further elongated, that points total tends to get you 10th-8th as opposed to 10th-15th as it used to. However you can call us an average team and that would not be an unfair descriptor at all.

We then seem to have what I can only view as an arrogance that we need to try and emulate what Liverpool or City do and that we should turn our nose up at what Moyes did. They are not far off twice our points totals. You are asking a group of players to do something, that in most cases they are incapable of doing. We have tried to repeat this time and again and on each occasion fallen short. The concern i have, is that Bournemouth try to do it as well, and are going to get relegated this season as a result. To a degree Norwich try to play that way as well, they will also get relegated. My fear is, once we take the blinkers off, we are more likely to become a Bournemouth than a Liverpool.

There have been 3 exceptions to this over the last 6 years. One under Koeman, where we ditched his principles, went back to basics and played more direct for Lukaku. We have a goot 15 game run. Last season under Silva at the back end we had again another decent 13 games going back to basics. Now under Ancelotti/Ferguson we have lost 3 league games in 17 and sit 4th in the table over that period. Again it's been built on doing the basics right.


On the previous 2 occasions (Silva/Koeman) we ripped up what worked in search of this holy grail and flopped. I think we need a prolonged spell of consolidating what we have done under Ancelotti/Ferguson. Yes you have to play the margins a bit, and have a bit of luck, but for the most part you begin to establish yourselves higher up the league. This is what Wolves are doing. There's no magic in that team, but they do the basics well, play their system and keep getting better at it.

Moyes did this too under Smith. It probably took him 3-4 years to begin to move away from it. We finished 4th under Moyes doing it, but unfortunately didn't have the clout to then consolidate and kick on. We do now.

Leicester won the league doing it. Atletico Madrid won the league on a couple of occasions and were minutes away from winning the CL. You can be successful doing it. I can see an argument that in the longer term a change will have to be made, but I also think the in the short to medium term for us to move from something that works would be a naive thing to do.

I'm fully aware we're average, you won't find me arguing there. In fact i've been unsuccessfully trying to convince other people of it for years. I'm also fully aware that we aren't going to turn into league challengers overnight. That doesn't mean I don't want us to improve though. In my opinion, sitting at the edge of your box repelling attack after attack will not get us past the level we're at now. It will get us some good results, but ultimately we will end up just regressing back to the normal level. We'll come up against sides who aren't as desperate to make the running as the 3 we've played most recently have been, we'll concede the first goal and not be able to play that way, and we'll come up against sides who have realised that's how we play and so come up with ways to counter it. It will also be very difficult to execute in front of full grounds, in away games because the opposition will be buoyed by the crowd and in home games because there's not a chance in hell Goodison will accept us sitting back not trying to lay a finger on the opposition for 80 minutes.

You're just using faulty logic really. You're basically saying that because we've tried to play a high line with players who can't do it, playing a high line won't work for us. The really quite astonishingly simple answer to that being 'buy players who can do it'.

 

[catcherintherye]

I'm fully aware we're average, you won't find me arguing there. In fact i've been unsuccessfully trying to convince other people of it for years. I'm also fully aware that we aren't going to turn into league challengers overnight. That doesn't mean I don't want us to improve though. In my opinion, sitting at the edge of your box repelling attack after attack will not get us past the level we're at now. It will get us some good results, but ultimately we will end up just regressing back to the normal level. We'll come up against sides who aren't as desperate to make the running as the 3 we've played most recently have been, we'll concede the first goal and not be able to play that way, and we'll come up against sides who have realised that's how we play and so come up with ways to counter it. It will also be very difficult to execute in front of full grounds, in away games because the opposition will be buoyed by the crowd and in home games because there's not a chance in hell Goodison will accept us sitting back not trying to lay a finger on the opposition for 80 minutes.

You're just using faulty logic really. You're basically saying that because we've tried to play a high line with players who can't do it, playing a high line won't work for us. The really quite astonishingly simple answer to that being 'buy players who can do it'.

I think the first part is a bit of an over simplification of what we are trying to do. We are defending deeper and ensuring we have a good defensive structure in front of them. On the whole this does seem to work quite well. We are in agreement we got lucky against Leicester but in the previous 2 games we performed the system very well. From a defensive standpoint, if you are well drilled it is actually very hard to break down. You reduce the number of easy goals you give away with long straight balls etc.

The flip of this, is that you have to be clinical on the counter. I think-particularly against Leicester that is the area that needs improvement. We need to pick the right pass better and be a bit more clinical. To me Calvert Lewin has to up his levels a bit on the counter. He should have had a penalty last night, but he has to take that ball across Soyuncu (this is what Vardy does) and then there is absolutely no doubt he gets the penalty. He's improved a lot at this, but it's the final step. Either way though, that is more about improving what we do now, rather than re-start it.

As for the final point, yes I agree. We can buy players who can play that system. My contention is that to buy players who can play it well (rather than cheap imitations like we've had under Martinez onwards) costs money and takes a lot of time. Due to FFP restrictions we are quite restricted in this regard. I also thinl, without getting into Europe consistently you have little chance of attracting the players who are of the right calibre to come.

I don't doubt that at some point you have to make the switch, but you can do this far too prematurely from our own experiences.