Messi "best player of all time"

[Bruce Wayne]

turned up in the group stages of 2014, complete myth that he was doing anything special on his own in the knockout stages, they ALWAYS had good sides

No bigger myth than Argentina had a bunch of Sunday league players in 1986.

 

[Walken]

No bigger myth than Argentina had a bunch of Sunday league players in 1986.

I wouldn't disagree, I don't think any football title can be won single handed, but that doesn't make your last post any less false

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I wouldn't disagree, I don't think any football title can be won single handed, but that doesn't make your last post any less false

But league success beats cup success because of the consistency required. I mean the Portuguese success in 2016 has been mentioned above, yet they were 3rd in their group having failed to beat any of Iceland, Hungary and Austria, before then squeaking past Croatia in extra time, Poland on penalties, Wales and an extra time win against France. If it was a league competition they'd have played 7, drawn 6 and won 1. Get out the bunting and crown Ronny the messiah.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That WC final was his chance to prove to the world once and for all that he had what it takes to lead his country to glory and finally propel himself to Maradonna's status, subsequently establishing himself as one of the very best ever. He failed.

Ronaldo's Euro 2016 win with Portugal was more impressive, as are his many domestic honours across different leagues when viewed collectively.

So we're taking one match to judge someone's career rather than the several hundred they play? Makes sense.

 

[heatmeiser]

He hasn't actually struggled woefully though. Failed to live up to the huge expectations sure. Struggled woefully, nowhere close.

You’ve already admitted to not watching him play last night, so you’re not really in a position to say if he has or hasn’t struggled woefully.

He really was anonymous. Barely worked, looked disinterested and lacklustre.

For someone that apparently never drops under a 7/10 - that was a 2/10 performance at best.

Absolutely shocking stuff.

 

[davek]

Not at all. I think he's far superior. His record at club level is on another level to Maradona. His goals record at international level is better (he's scored x2 as many goals as Maradona at both club and international level and is not finished yet). At club level, Maradona won 2 leagues, 2 cups and a UEFA Cup. Messi has won 9 leagues, 6 cups and 4 Champions Leagues. It's not even comparable.

His Copa America record with Argentina is much better, and it's interesting that Argentina did nothing in that competition with Maradona in their team, yet when he gets banned for drugs, they win two in a row. He doesn't cheat like Maradona did.

Literally the only thing Maradona has done that Messi hasn't is win the World Cup, and because he scored a great goal against England at a time when many of us here were in our adolescence, we over-inflate what he actually achieved in the game.

That's a brave effort (and I dont think many others would have the chutzpah to throw Spanish Cups and a battery of meaningless international goals into the fray) but the real comparison is over individual achievement and what each were able to do with the resources at their disposal: Maradona's Argentina were average quality players at best when he won his country the WC in 86; the two Serie A titles (when Serie A was indisputably the best league in Europe) with a Napoli team that'd never achieved anything much before are a greater effort than winning the CL multiple times with Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol etc etc there to put in world class performances.

 

[Lanolin]

Have to laugh at people saying Messi hasn't done it at international level when he's scored 64 goals. Basically suggests people just watch the world cup and the Euros, and seeing as Messi isn't at the Euros, he has a bit of a disadvantage.

For me, they're both outstanding players, although totally different, and I couldn't really say one is better than the other (I prefer watching Messi though, from a stylistic point of view).

Ronaldo finds it easier at international level I think, as the team has long been set up to get the best out of him. It's a perfect set up really, because he's surrounded by very good players(it makes me laugh when people make out the rest of them are pub players), but none of them are great players, so they are all relatively happy to be subservient to him. Argentina are different, and you only need to watch one game to see that the likes of Di Maria, Aguero, Higuaín don't appreciate playing second fiddle to Messi.

 

[heatmeiser]

Should be best of there era really , these two are fresh in the memory, TV, social media all over them.
Game is different , no tackles from behind ect, pitches and sports science making them fitter.
Even the balls have changed, imagine Messi trying to fly passed a defender with a rain sodden Case ball at his feet, anybody old enough to play with one would tell you it was heavy anyway never mind wet and God forbid you headed it especially if it was on the lace,
Today's footballs are like balloons in comparison.
Let's face it none of really know how good the likes of Matthews, puskas ,carrricachia(the Brazilian don't know how you spell it)
Before are time and not enough footage to make a judgement.

Imagine Ronaldo or Messi given the acres of space people like Best and Pele had? As incredible as those players were, the defending back then was unbelievably poor.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's a brave effort (and I dont think many others would have the chutzpah to throw Spanish Cups and a battery of meaningless international goals into the fray) but the real comparison is over individual achievement and what each were able to do with the resources at their disposal: Maradona's Argentina were average quality players at best when he won his country the WC in 86; the two Serie A titles (when Serie A was indisputably the best league in Europe) with a Napoli team that'd never achieved anything much before are a greater effort than winning the CL multiple times with Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol etc etc there to put in world class performances.

Regarded as average players because few of them played in Europe so you'd never seen them play before?

 

[davek]

Imagine Ronaldo or Messi given the acres of space people like Best and Pele had? As incredible as those players were, the defending back then was unbelievably poor.

I'd balance that a bit by pointing out that Ronaldo and Messi wouldn't have got past the halfway line with the type of murderous defenders they had back then.

 

[davek]

Regarded as average players because few of them played in Europe so you'd never seen them play before?

...not just my assessment, I think there's a fairly substantial volume of opinion concerning the Argentinian team of 86. Basically it was Maradona + luggage.

 

[Deleted member 28206]

 

[Bruce Wayne]

...not just my assessment, I think there's a fairly substantial volume of opinion concerning the Argentinian team of 86. Basically it was Maradona + luggage.

If you say so. Interesting isn't it that equal on 5 goals in that tournament was Careca, another bit of luggage from his Napoli team of no hopers.

 

[longers]

I think there's a fairly substantial volume of opinion concerning the Argentinian team of 86. Basically it was Maradona + luggage.

Thats the Hollywood narrative thats been sold by the media for sure...

 

[larrygobfiend]

Tough one this. Argentina are a mess because there's no balance in the squad - they have unbelievable strikers and nothing else. Messi drowns in that team with no midfielders to back him up. Stick him in that Croatia team with the likes of Modric and Rakitic and they win the World Cup imo.

Portugal aren't the best, but there's a lot more balance in the team.