Martinez Out?

[Tubey]

I think kneejerk is the wrong word at this point (though there has been plenty of kneejerk).

Impatient is a little better, but still not right.

My question to the OUT crowd - Who do we get in to improve us, how much money do they get, how much time before we sack them if they don't right the ship straight from the off? Do we expect sacking Martinez to be something that pays immediate dividends as well works long term?

From my perspective, teams have a couple of paths to success:
1) Money
2) Luck
3) Continuity

We don't have any of 1 or 2. We have to try for 3. Moyes stayed too long in the end, but the expectations of Everton being a regular top half club come not from managerial brilliance, but from the fact Moyes was given time to build the squad and club in his image, to his style and to maximize his potential given Everton's constraints.

Martinez is not a proven commodity, but Everton cannot afford to go bring in a proven commodity. So any firing of Martinez is rolling the dice and setting the clock back on possible success. There is obviously a point in which we throw in the towel and say this was a disaster, but I question the speed at which some people are willing to do so.

Oh come on, not again... Can we please stop using the "Moyes Defence" please. It's tiring... There's a bagload of reasons to support Martinez without resorting to the old standard - his desire to play winning football rather than worry about losing to what the opposition do, his eye for a few good signings shown thus far like McCarthy, Besic and his faith in younger players, allowing them to make mistakes to improve. Anything like that is better than "LOL LET'S GET MCLAREN IN INSTEAD THEN EH?"

 

[MACCA75]

65 points to 72 points is enormous.

Probably a Lukaku/Anichebe sort of difference.

 

[davek]

Dave declared the league season over in September and he accuses people of knee jerking?????

I declare the need for a fallow year. That's slightly different. Martinez (given the poor preseason and window) should have experimented this season. I honestly think if he had and gone a lot with the squad periphery there'd be more understanding of where we are.

 

[Tubey]

Dave declared the league season over in September and he accuses people of knee jerking?????

To be fair, I'd accept a poor season if the factors were not in his control (such as injuries, dressing room disruption , bad news from the boardroom etc.) - it's not actually the lack of success that frustrates me; it's the nature of them, as they stem from the manager's ability rather than secondary factors, which suggests to me those issues will exist next season too.

I'm 99% sure he'll get to Christmas - my view is he shouldn't get that if we finish really badly this season.

 

[davek]

Probably a Lukaku/Anichebe sort of difference.

Well, he had Saha get 13 in the PL in 2009/10 and we got to 61 points.

 

[Allezfan]

To be fair, I'd accept a poor season if the factors were not in his control (such as injuries, dressing room disruption , bad news from the boardroom etc.) - it's not actually the lack of success that frustrates me; it's the nature of them, as they stem from the manager's ability rather than secondary factors, which suggests to me those issues will exist next season too.

I'm 99% sure he'll get to Christmas - my view is he shouldn't get that if we finish really badly this season.

Why though?

Isn't the risk/reward thing skewed in favour of keeping him?

 

[Toffeelover]

My question to the OUT crowd - Who do we get in to improve us,

There have been various suggestions put forward, I am not going to repeat them. The point I wish to make is, if we were in the position of looking for a new manager, who knows who will apply. Could be rubbish or there could be a a real talent, one never knows.

So there is really no answer to your question, it is up to the Board.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Oh come on, not again... Can we please stop using the "Moyes Defence" please. It's tiring... There's a bagload of reasons to support Martinez without resorting to the old standard - his desire to play winning football rather than worry about losing to what the opposition do, his eye for a few good signings shown thus far like McCarthy, Besic and his faith in younger players, allowing them to make mistakes to improve. Anything like that is better than "LOL LET'S GET MCLAREN IN INSTEAD THEN EH?"

I think that's an unfair appraisal of my question. Moyes had 11 years to prove he wasn't the man to take us to the top.

Martinez has had 18 months, 12 of which were very positive before an admittedly precipitous drop. That changes the argument significantly. I think Martinez has the potential to turn us around, and bring us back to where we were last year.

Forgive me for not wanting to be a cash poor version of Spurs.

 

[Goat]

To be fair, I'd accept a poor season if the factors were not in his control (such as injuries, dressing room disruption , bad news from the boardroom etc.) - it's not actually the lack of success that frustrates me; it's the nature of them, as they stem from the manager's ability rather than secondary factors, which suggests to me those issues will exist next season too.

I'm 99% sure he'll get to Christmas - my view is he shouldn't get that if we finish really badly this season.

And then theres you, who actually hoped that the RS would beat us in the Semi just so it meant Moyes was sacked or would leave.

 

[sageyefc]

Probably a Lukaku/Anichebe sort of difference.

Well i question your eye sight mate.


The fact that there were very few times even in defeat were we came of the pitch having been outplayed.

We bossed so many games last year and put in some of the finest performances ive seen in a decade or 2 on multiple occasions, its beyond just the points we earned

 

[RaleighBlue]

There have been various suggestions put forward, I am not going to repeat them. The point I wish to make is, if we were in the position of looking for a new manager, who knows who will apply. Could be rubbish or there could be a a real talent, one never knows.

So there is really no answer to your question, it is up to the Board.

So we place our trust in Bill Kenwright to lead us to footballing nirvana over someone that has actually presided over a trophy winning side?

 

[Tubey]

Why though?

Isn't the risk/reward thing skewed in favour of keeping him?

Depends on your view. If you think he'll change things up, reassess in the summer, reinforce to suit a new system and surprise everyone, then the reward is there.

But do even the most ardent Martinez fans think he'll change? Surely people recognise that he's been found out good and proper in regards to the style of play we adopt (push us high, force mistakes, job done). I mean, his supporters feel his biggest strength is that he'll stick to what he believes in no matter what - but what if what he believes in doesn't cut the mustard over the longer term? You can't think he'll stick to his guns AND change at the same time.

 

[Allezfan]

Well, he had Saha get 13 in the PL in 2009/10 and we got to 61 points.

We were pretty crap through a lot of that season, too. Only got going come january.

Last season was better than Moyes ever managed at his best (and Moyes at his best isn't a particuarly low bar, we were, in patches, excellent udner him) and this season is not yet as bad as Moyes at his worst.

 

[nsno-chris]

chris, you're like someone caught up in razor wire: the more you struggle the worse it gets.

You were arguing against his appointment when it was first proposed in the summer the ginger Judas ran off. You are utterly bankrupt on all things Martinez related. You just are. Maybe you should just nominate one of the other plotters to say your piece for you? That way you get your point across but cant be pulled up for your lack of objectivity?

Just trying to think laterally here to help out.

Errrr have i, and this isn't the first time i've said this to you, rejected the fact that i didn't want him appointed??? The answer, for about the 5th time is no.

But your awful lies, again and again, about me wanting him sacked last year and a scrape of the barrel yet again.

Maybe you should get Damo to speak for you; little Clegg and Cameron double act.

Keep trying mate, one day you'll actually win one of the these little arguments.

How much have contributed to Martinez's wages in the last 2 years; like i said, more of a valid input than you. But keep banging one, you're making me laugh, just swinging and missing all the time.

Anyway, you wanted Brenda as our manager

 

[Tubey]

And then theres you, who actually hoped that the RS would beat us in the Semi just so it meant Moyes was sacked or would leave.

Yeah that didn't happen. I actually was sick at the thought of beating Sunderland in the replay to get the RS in the semi, as I knew we'd bottle the big game.

And what do you know...