Martinez Out?

Toffeelover · February 23, 2015

RaleighBlue said:
So we place our trust in Bill Kenwright to lead us to footballing nirvana over someone that has actually presided over a trophy winning side?

And got them relegated, is that what you would like. The appointment of a manager is in the hands of the Board, you placed your trust in BK in signing RM, have you not?

Allezfan · February 23, 2015

Tubey said:
Depends on your view. If you think he'll change things up, reassess in the summer, reinforce to suit a new system and surprise everyone, then the reward is there.

But do even the most ardent Martinez fans think he'll change? Surely people recognise that he's been found out good and proper in regards to the style of play we adopt (push us high, force mistakes, job done). I mean, his supporters feel his biggest strength is that he'll stick to what he believes in no matter what - but what if what he believes in doesn't cut the mustard over the longer term? You can't think he'll stick to his guns AND change at the same time.

It's more that I think that the risk of getting rid of Martinez too soon is bigger than the risk of getting rid of him too late.

And the rewards of him reproducing last season again is a decent carrot as well.

RaleighBlue · February 23, 2015

Toffeelover said:
And got them relegated, is that what you would like. The appointment of a manager is in the hands of the Board, you placed your trust in BK in signing RM, have you not?

No. I was just being snarky to the idea that we're going to magically get the next Diego Simeone.

Changing managers with regularity is something teams with enough money to paper over it, and crap filler do. Give the manager time to actually prove his worth. And yes, that takes longer than a year. Often it can take multiple years.

Sack him if we get relegated. Otherwise, give him another summer to sort it.

Allezfan · February 23, 2015

RaleighBlue said:
So we place our trust in Bill Kenwright to lead us to footballing nirvana over someone that has actually presided over a trophy winning side?

Kenwright's hiring record for coaches is actually pretty good albeit in a small sample size.

For all his flaws I think he does have a good idea of what he wants in a manager that fits the job he wants them to do.

Tubey · February 23, 2015

Allezfan said:
It's more that I think that the risk of getting rid of Martinez too soon is bigger than the risk of getting rid of him too late.

And the rewards of him reproducing last season again is a decent carrot as well.

That's a legitimate view. I just disagree 'tis all. I think we could lose Mirallas/Lukaku (oh no) Coleman/Baines etc. if we start badly, so that risk is there, and two bad seasons on the trot means our status in the league won't attract quality players etc.

As I say, it depends on your view. I'm not saying people backing Martinez are wrong - I'm just saying those criticising him are not either. If in 9 months the guy has us battling around the ECL places approaching Christmas, I'd be delighted.

Allezfan · February 23, 2015

RaleighBlue said:
No. I was just being snarky to the idea that we're going to magically get the next Diego Simeone.

Changing managers with regularity is something teams with enough money to paper over it, and crap filler do. Give the manager time to actually prove his worth. And yes, that takes longer than a year. Often it can take multiple years.

Sack him if we get relegated. Otherwise, give him another summer to sort it.

Wouldn't even do that, tbh.

Course we wouldn't have to.

RaleighBlue · February 23, 2015

Allezfan said:
Kenwright's hiring record for coaches is actually pretty good albeit in a sample size.

For all his flaws I think he does have a good idea of what he wants in a manager that fits the job he wanst them to do.

One of his best points as chairman is the fact that he backs his managers and gives them time. Which is why all of this gnashing of teeth is pointless. He won't be sacked unless he has absolutely proven he's not up to it.

And it's anything but proven.

Tubey · February 23, 2015

RaleighBlue said:
No. I was just being snarky to the idea that we're going to magically get the next Diego Simeone.

Changing managers with regularity is something teams with enough money to paper over it, and crap filler do. Give the manager time to actually prove his worth. And yes, that takes longer than a year. Often it can take multiple years.

Sack him if we get relegated. Otherwise, give him another summer to sort it.

If we go down to the final few games of the season and that's a possibility, I'd be embarrassed for the club if he was still in the job. Surely nobody would want someone taking us within a few games of the Championship still in the role?

matty1878 · February 23, 2015

RaleighBlue said:
No. I was just being snarky to the idea that we're going to magically get the next Diego Simeone.

Changing managers with regularity is something teams with enough money to paper over it, and crap filler do. Give the manager time to actually prove his worth. And yes, that takes longer than a year. Often it can take multiple years.

Sack him if we get relegated. Otherwise, give him another summer to sort it.

If we got relegated Everton would disappear into the footballing abyss.

RaleighBlue · February 23, 2015

Tubey said:
If we go down to the final few games of the season and that's a possibility, I'd be embarrassed for the club if he was still in the job. Surely nobody would want someone taking us within a few games of the Championship still in the role?

Sure.

Don't care if we finish 17th or 10th this season if we're fighting for top 4 next year.

Allezfan · February 23, 2015

RaleighBlue said:
One of his best points as chairman is the fact that he backs his managers and gives them time. Which is why all of this gnashing of teeth is pointless. He won't be sacked unless he has absolutely proven he's not up to it.

And it's anything but proven.

Yeah, Kenwright ain't sacking Martinez until he has to.

Which is relegation fight, fans turning, him worried about feeling real pressure and needing a sacrificial goat.

We ain't there, and hopefully we won't get there.

matty1878 · February 23, 2015

Tubey said:
If we go down to the final few games of the season and that's a possibility, I'd be embarrassed for the club if he was still in the job. Surely nobody would want someone taking us within a few games of the Championship still in the role?

Then if it was final few games and not now like 14 sacking him with a few games left is pointless

Allezfan · February 23, 2015

Tubey said:
If we go down to the final few games of the season and that's a possibility, I'd be embarrassed for the club if he was still in the job. Surely nobody would want someone taking us within a few games of the Championship still in the role?

2003-04?

Tubey · February 23, 2015

Allezfan said:
2003-04?

It didn't happen that year - we actually lost our last four games and still stayed up by six points.

That anyone would see us drop to a point or two of relegation with, say, four games left and be able to say, "yeah, let's keep trust in the guy who took a side of this quality to the brink of the abyss" is just baffling to me. It's support at the expense of logic.

Allezfan · February 23, 2015

Tubey said:
It didn't happen that year - we actually lost our last four games and still stayed up by six points.

That anyone would see us drop to a point or two of relegation with, say, four games left and be able to say, "yeah, let's keep trust in the guy who took a side of this quality to the brink of the abyss" is just baffling to me. It's support at the expense of logic.

If we're playing hypotheticals.

We're all assuming we'll end this season trophyless, out of europe and bottom half but safe right?

So you're arguing that even being clsoe to relegation is bad enough to need a change, if we also go the other way and get close to a trophy, say final or semi final would that balance it out?