2020/21 Marcel Brands

[Lanolin]

I wouldn't be quite as critical as you but I do agree with the gist. I mean in a lot of ways Allan is a bargain. He cost the same as Schneiderlin, Gomes, Doucoure, Klaassen and is a cut above all of them, but we know he is at the back end of his career.

I do think Nkonkou & Brainthwaite are bargains too, but I don't think it has much to do with negotiation on those fronts, he just got great intelligence on both and in general the price is the price.

The issue with Brands is about a lot of the other stuff we are doing. It's taken 2.5 years to overhaul the scouting system, and the overhaul of the acacemy at present has heavily involved further consolidating people in existing power structures. I suppose people were hoping for a bit more. I'd have thought you;d have done both of those things very early on into the role.

I think people want to see what he's doing. I do get the "if he's good he's Carlos and if he's bad he's Brands" argument, which is really a flow on from Walsh/Koeman/Allardyce/Silva etc and I do agree it's problematic. However if Ancelotti is identifyijng people through his contacts it's fine, but I'd like to see more buys like Brainthwaite/Nknonkou moving forward. If he were to do that, people would soon start to see what he was doing in terms of adding value.

I agree with your general point.

I said yesterday, it's way too early to be saying Nkounkou and Branthwaite are bargains. I'm pleased we're signing players like that, and i like what i've seen so far, but until they actually do something then they can't be classed as bargains. We've seen lots of young players - either from the academy or bought in - come in and look promising only to fall away, so it's massively premature to be saying lads who can't currently get in the matchday squad can already go down as a bargain buy. The same applies to Allan in a slightly different way. He's clearly a good player, and he's made a good - not great - start to his Everton career. He's only a bargain if he plays a part in the team significantly improving though. We're not going to make money on him so the only way he can be great value is by being a key part of a team that becomes (relatively) successful. If that happens then he's a bargain, if he's just a 'good' player for 3 years while we finish 8th and 9th and then leaves on a free then you'd have to think actually it's £22m that could probably have been better spent elsewhere.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Incredible if he signs a new deal in the midst of this malaise.

This club has zero standards.

Winds me up how the club never try improve on itself unless its crisis situation.

Like we would happily persist with an underperforming manager or DOF until we are in the relegation spots then oh look we have to change it quick.

No ambishun.

 

[catcherintherye]

I agree with your general point.

I said yesterday, it's way too early to be saying Nkounkou and Branthwaite are bargains. I'm pleased we're signing players like that, and i like what i've seen so far, but until they actually do something then they can't be classed as bargains. We've seen lots of young players - either from the academy or bought in - come in and look promising only to fall away, so it's massively premature to be saying lads who can't currently get in the matchday squad can already go down as a bargain buy. The same applies to Allan in a slightly different way. He's clearly a good player, and he's made a good - not great - start to his Everton career. He's only a bargain if he plays a part in the team significantly improving though. We're not going to make money on him so the only way he can be great value is by being a key part of a team that becomes (relatively) successful. If that happens then he's a bargain, if he's just a 'good' player for 3 years while we finish 8th and 9th and then leaves on a free then you'd have to think actually it's £22m that could probably have been better spent elsewhere.

Yes all fair. But then a lot of the signings will fit under the too early to tell stage.

 

[Jozzy]

Over the last six or seven years the club has had a ridiculous amount of change, every time we make these significant changes I feel we’re often also removing or taking away any positives that had previously been made.

I personally really hope Brands stay and both him and Carlo have the opportunity to work together for several years to truely and finally build a special team.

Steve Walsh absolutely destroyed our squad and wages, we’re still feeling the affects of it. I genuinely think Brands has done a good job with transitioning away from everything Walsh had done but that wasn’t ever going to be a short or quick thing to do.

 

[catcherintherye]

I’m surprised you’re saying Brands didn’t make the decisions regarding Silva and Ancelotti. Moshiri will obviously have the final decision but he’s not involved with the club 24/7 like Brands is and has no significant experience of sacking and finding new managers. Brands for me clearly had a say in the sacking of Silva, if he was against it and made that his position he would have gone too. Similarly , Moshiri wouldn’t have had a grasp on the best replacements available, that’s Brands‘ job to find and propose them . Again he must have supported Ancellotti’s nomination and appointment , you couldn’t have a DoF not happy with the manager he’d have to go.
My point is a simple one, whether you think they were good or bad decisions I believe that Silva and Ancelotti were largely down to Brands , rubber stamped by Moshiri. I don’t see a power struggle between Brands and Ancelotti , but long term they’ll either succeed together or one or both will go.

There is obviously some speculation on my part, and I'm really just giving my opinion on the subject. It was certainly widely reported that Brands was in favour of keeping Silva, and the Athletic article seems to re-enforce that. I don't believe he wanted to sack him, and in honesty I certainly don't think he would have had Ancelotti on top of his wish list. The fact Moshiri tried to get Ancelotti in 2017 and then we got him in 2020 to me gives us the clearest indication of who wanted him.

Theoretically you are correct. Which is kind of my point. I am surprised that Brands didn't go. However I'm not sure him not going is evidence that he made the decisions, it's more he is willing to make compromises on some fairly substantial elements of the job remit. One part I found interesting in the Athletic article when it was said there was some frustration at the speed he had the list of replacements ready. I do wonder if his role is not to decide who to pick, but to present some options? It may also be, that any such list he had did not have the name(s) Moshiri wanted.

As for a power struggle re Brands/Ancelotti, I don't see this either. That wasn't really what I was getting at, it was more that I don't think Brands has/has been allowed to do all aspects of the role. Who gets the blame for that is obviously open for debate.

 

[Zatara]

French defender Jean-Clair Todibo, 20, is set to return toBarcelona after failing to play a single minute during his loan stint at Benfica. (Abola - in Portuguese)

Another bullet dodged by the sound of it.

If the rumours of Brands wanting Todibo are true then you really have to question his judgement of players, particularly centre halves.

Well, he has been injured...

Yes well put.

I'm not sure if you've done much negotiation in your day job, and I've certainly not done it to the level and figures of Brands but there are a lot of myths around it (made worse by shows like the Apprentice). Product identification (or whatever it is called) is going to be the biggest thing you can do in negotiation. Your pub analogy is a good one so I'll run with it, but you need to work out how much money you have to spend, what sort of night out do you want, what sort of lager you like etc and then have a look at what sort of pubs have the cheapest lager. That is going to get you 90% of the way there. The bit about getting some extra off, which is the bit people focus on is really the end of the process.

Going to clubs like Watford, for players on long contracts is not going to get you particularly good deals. At the time we did, probably going to Barcelona wasnt either. He's probably been a bit fortunate now, as he's stumbled upon a good area (older players, who's values are declining) thanks to Ancelotti's demands and he has negotiated great deals on Allan/James.

I suppose I'd just like to see a more consistent plan from him to be honest. In recent years, the best buys we've had have really been Steve Walsh (Gueye) and David Unsworth (Calvert Lewin).

With Watford, id say £22mil for Doucoure and £35-50mil for Richarlison were good deals.

The fact is that Richarlisons value has skyrocketed and Doucoure at worst is a very good squad player to have.

Theres value to be had in England and we may have been able to sign other players overseas who we could make more money on but with higher risks attached.

The £25mil for Godfrey may also seem expensive now (as alot thought of richarlison) but in 1-2 years he may be a regular international and star centre back for us...

The issue i have is with the players he's missed out on through dithering and the ones hes bought in their place not being comparable in development or position...

Lenglet -- Mina (Lenglet was 1st choice, went to Barca so we signed Mina who is a very different player).

Gabriel -- Godfrey (Differences are obvious)

Zaha -- Iwobi (Differences are obvious)

Doucoure -- Delph (We got Doucoure in the end but very different players)


Several other examples will be out there but it seems odd that we pivot to a 2nd or 3rd choice who is very different than the 1st choice.

I wouldn't be quite as critical as you but I do agree with the gist. I mean in a lot of ways Allan is a bargain. He cost the same as Schneiderlin, Gomes, Doucoure, Klaassen and is a cut above all of them, but we know he is at the back end of his career.

I do think Nkonkou & Brainthwaite are bargains too, but I don't think it has much to do with negotiation on those fronts, he just got great intelligence on both and in general the price is the price.

The issue with Brands is about a lot of the other stuff we are doing. It's taken 2.5 years to overhaul the scouting system, and the overhaul of the acacemy at present has heavily involved further consolidating people in existing power structures. I suppose people were hoping for a bit more. I'd have thought you;d have done both of those things very early on into the role.

I think people want to see what he's doing. I do get the "if he's good he's Carlos and if he's bad he's Brands" argument, which is really a flow on from Walsh/Koeman/Allardyce/Silva etc and I do agree it's problematic. However if Ancelotti is identifyijng people through his contacts it's fine, but I'd like to see more buys like Brainthwaite/Nknonkou moving forward. If he were to do that, people would soon start to see what he was doing in terms of adding value.

The obvious younger players would be:

LB: Nkounkou
LCB: Branthwaite
LF: Gordon (youth)
CF: Kean

Thats 4/11 players all under 21 and we would make a profit on all of them.

If we managed to add another 7 u21s over the next 4 windows then we'd literally have half the squad full of young players which shows a progressive club mentality.

Of course, some like Kean may be sold for a profit but his sale should/could cover several u21 signings for the squad.

If Brands' plan is to build a 2nd team of high potential hungry u21s then by 2022 summer when half our squad will have left upon contract expiry then it can only be a good thing.

 

[Carlito]

I'll put a bit of a defence of Brands first, in as much as I think it's like hiring a consultant, but people just keep getting in the way and meddling. He seems quite passive to me, which if a structure is working well is fine, but if it's not it's a big problem. In my view he didnt sack Marco Silva and he didn't hire Ancelotti. So we kind of have this odd situation where the person who is theoretically in charge of making those decisions doesn't make them. This isn't just a defence for Brands either, but if the above is true, any top DOF would just walk out and state they can't do the job.

The flip of it, is that whoever did make the decision (I presume Moshiri) utimately made the right decision. Results imediately improved after Silva went, and we ended up getting a much better manager in. That is also a criticism of Brands really, as if Moshiri could see it, why couldn't he?

On the specific of your point, what you realise is if you just keep your head down and get on with things, you get away with a lot at Everton. Thats the picture you get. He's quite a nice bloke, gets along with everyone and doesn't make too many big calls.

This is constantly why I have been saying the question of Brands to me is very tied to getting a proper CEO/Chair in who can hold the organisation to account better. Until that happens, there's not much incentive to really rock the boat.

Thats all just my perceptions though, and I could be way out.

Agree with all of that, and as @ForeverBlue92 said, the club never takes significant action on anything unless it's in response to a crisis.

Presumably, Ancelotti will be staying for as long as he wants to be here, so is it wise to retain a director of football whose MO is identifying youth players if the manager isn't going to use them? The same mistakes keep being repeated over and over (eg replacing Baines/Coleman, or Silva clearly not wanting Kean), which suggests that no one at the executive level is really paying much attention to what the DoFs are doing.

I'm not going to say that he's clueless, useless, etc, but at the same time, I don't think it's working. I know that I keep going on about it, but the fact that the Baines situation of 2017/18 has been repeated with Coleman is unforgivable.

 

[Saint Domingo]

New video from the club with him and DCL answering academy player questions. He’s at home in the knowledge he’s part of the furniture here now. Embrace it boys. The architect is in charge.

 

[Nymzee]

 

[catcherintherye]

Agree with all of that, and as @ForeverBlue92 said, the club never takes significant action on anything unless it's in response to a crisis.

Presumably, Ancelotti will be staying for as long as he wants to be here, so is it wise to retain a director of football whose MO is identifying youth players if the manager isn't going to use them? The same mistakes keep being repeated over and over (eg replacing Baines/Coleman, or Silva clearly not wanting Kean), which suggests that no one at the executive level is really paying much attention to what the DoFs are doing.

I'm not going to say that he's clueless, useless, etc, but at the same time, I don't think it's working. I know that I keep going on about it, but the fact that the Baines situation of 2017/18 has been repeated with Coleman is unforgivable.

I think thats actually a good way to charcterise the clubs attitude. They are very reactive. We let things plod along until the moment we look in danger of relegation.

I hope Ancelotti and Brands stay for a long time. In general continuity works, but I can also understand people asking what vaue does Brands add. I completely understand he needs to organise and finalise transfers, but you're hoping for more value to be added than essentially getting a list from Ancelotti and rubber stamping it.

If we can start dding 2-3 players akin to Nkonkou/Brainthwaite each year, and pad that out with every year a Gordon stepping up, then Brands will have shown his value. Thats kind of what I hope. It will be a great supplement to what Ancelotti is doing.

 

[catcherintherye]

Well, he has been injured...




With Watford, id say £22mil for Doucoure and £35-50mil for Richarlison were good deals.

The fact is that Richarlisons value has skyrocketed and Doucoure at worst is a very good squad player to have.

Theres value to be had in England and we may have been able to sign other players overseas who we could make more money on but with higher risks attached.

The £25mil for Godfrey may also seem expensive now (as alot thought of richarlison) but in 1-2 years he may be a regular international and star centre back for us...

The issue i have is with the players he's missed out on through dithering and the ones hes bought in their place not being comparable in development or position...

Lenglet -- Mina (Lenglet was 1st choice, went to Barca so we signed Mina who is a very different player).

Gabriel -- Godfrey (Differences are obvious)

Zaha -- Iwobi (Differences are obvious)

Doucoure -- Delph (We got Doucoure in the end but very different players)


Several other examples will be out there but it seems odd that we pivot to a 2nd or 3rd choice who is very different than the 1st choice.




The obvious younger players would be:

LB: Nkounkou
LCB: Branthwaite
LF: Gordon (youth)
CF: Kean

Thats 4/11 players all under 21 and we would make a profit on all of them.

If we managed to add another 7 u21s over the next 4 windows then we'd literally have half the squad full of young players which shows a progressive club mentality.

Of course, some like Kean may be sold for a profit but his sale should/could cover several u21 signings for the squad.

If Brands' plan is to build a 2nd team of high potential hungry u21s then by 2022 summer when half our squad will have left upon contract expiry then it can only be a good thing.

Yes some really interesting points.

I think the big take out is Brands needs to keep recruiting younger gems. I know there were 1 or two others he liked but couldn't finalise. Thats the hope really. The scouting has been slowly getting changed, and he now has his recruit in charge of the academy (from Derby). We have to hope that starts to pay greater dividends.

 

[DaChunk]

fully on holiday

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Interesting that he name-dropped Anthony Gordon specifically as someone who's development he's been especially pleased with. Says he'll get more opportunities.

 

[andy4efc]

Well, he has been injured...




With Watford, id say £22mil for Doucoure and £35-50mil for Richarlison were good deals.

The fact is that Richarlisons value has skyrocketed and Doucoure at worst is a very good squad player to have.

Theres value to be had in England and we may have been able to sign other players overseas who we could make more money on but with higher risks attached.

The £25mil for Godfrey may also seem expensive now (as alot thought of richarlison) but in 1-2 years he may be a regular international and star centre back for us...

The issue i have is with the players he's missed out on through dithering and the ones hes bought in their place not being comparable in development or position...

Lenglet -- Mina (Lenglet was 1st choice, went to Barca so we signed Mina who is a very different player).

Gabriel -- Godfrey (Differences are obvious)

Zaha -- Iwobi (Differences are obvious)

Doucoure -- Delph (We got Doucoure in the end but very different players)


Several other examples will be out there but it seems odd that we pivot to a 2nd or 3rd choice who is very different than the 1st choice.




The obvious younger players would be:

LB: Nkounkou
LCB: Branthwaite
LF: Gordon (youth)
CF: Kean

Thats 4/11 players all under 21 and we would make a profit on all of them.

If we managed to add another 7 u21s over the next 4 windows then we'd literally have half the squad full of young players which shows a progressive club mentality.

Of course, some like Kean may be sold for a profit but his sale should/could cover several u21 signings for the squad.

If Brands' plan is to build a 2nd team of high potential hungry u21s then by 2022 summer when half our squad will have left upon contract expiry then it can only be a good thing.

Please don't pretend COVID didn't have a huge affect on that deal. Gabriel always choosing arsenal as soon as he heard of their interest as he stated himself. Hardly Brands dithering when nobody knew what was going on in the world.

The others apart from Llenglet I agree on. Llenglet we have no idea what the situation was at all, pure speculation at best. Who wouldn't choose Barca over Everton if that was the choice.

 

[andy4efc]

Interesting that he name-dropped Anthony Gordon specifically as someone who's development he's been especially pleased with. Says he'll get more opportunities.

AG is a weird one. CA clearly likes him, as he brought him in quite quickly after the restart last season, but now has put back again. I wonder if he's just trying to ensure pressure is kept off him?

Our academy has done little for years unfortunately, otherwise we'd have more AG's knocking on the door. Now we've promoted Unsworth to a higher position despite providing very little return from the u23's.