Lewis Gibson

[Zatara]

I wonder why we havent put fresh terms in front of Gibson?

Could it be that were waiting as long as possible before deciding whether to boost him up to a 1st team level salary?

 

[Lanolin]

They have actually had a plan in mind - Wilson has taken progressive steps up. Connolly has gone from Championship down to League One.

As was in the youth thread - we’re keeping lads way past the point where they are either going to make it or not to develop a ‘winning’ culture to the point we are actually limiting our youths ability to improve.

Arguably out of the list of players currently out on loan only Virginia might have a future. The rest have been loaned out to go in the shop window.

That’s what I’m talking about, bending the facts to suit the argument. Harry Wilson was so highly rated he was given a full international cap at 16, and yet Liverpool have only got him a PL gig at 22. There was no clear plan, in fact it’s borderline incompetence.

Even if we pretend that Wilson works in your argument, why have his mates like Ojo, ejaria, woodburn, Kent etc done the same as our lot if they’re so much better at it as a club?

We have kept some players for too long, undoubtedly. Pennington being the obvious one in recent times, and now there’s the charsley debate. Other than that I don’t think it’s a problem we really have. I know you used the example of Fraser hornby which I Just can’t agree with at all. Saying a 19 year old has been kept ‘way past’ a reasonable point is stretching the credibility of the point far beyond where it can be taken seriously.

It makes me laugh how much people (not necessarily you) contradict themselves when it comes to these things. You’ve got people complaining that we’ve not tied Gibson down, but also complaining that we end up keeping players too long. The same people are stamping their feet saying how sick they are of us not taking cups seriously and playing our strongest team, and then saying ‘can’t believe this completely untested 19 year old centre half wasn’t given a game in the cup’. It’s crazy.

 

[zzr45]

That’s what I’m talking about, bending the facts to suit the argument. Harry Wilson was so highly rated he was given a full international cap at 16, and yet Liverpool have only got him a PL gig at 22. There was no clear plan, in fact it’s borderline incompetence.

Even if we pretend that Wilson works in your argument, why have his mates like Ojo, ejaria, woodburn, Kent etc done the same as our lot if they’re so much better at it as a club?

We have kept some players for too long, undoubtedly. Pennington being the obvious one in recent times, and now there’s the charsley debate. Other than that I don’t think it’s a problem we really have. I know you used the example of Fraser hornby which I Just can’t agree with at all. Saying a 19 year old has been kept ‘way past’ a reasonable point is stretching the credibility of the point far beyond where it can be taken seriously.

It makes me laugh how much people (not necessarily you) contradict themselves when it comes to these things. You’ve got people complaining that we’ve not tied Gibson down, but also complaining that we end up keeping players too long. The same people are stamping their feet saying how sick they are of us not taking cups seriously and playing our strongest team, and then saying ‘can’t believe this completely untested 19 year old centre half wasn’t given a game in the cup’. It’s crazy.

Wilson was clearly tied down by the Welsh early doors. There’s always been a sense of progression in that it’s gone L2 (or 1 wherever Crewe were at the time - Championship- PL). We don’t seem to have that.

I think Hornby has stood out as an anachronism in our side for years. 20-30 years ago he’d be celebrated, but just doesn’t look like a modern PL forward. I’d say you get the idea by 19.

Completely agree though, some want it all ways up. I’d rather we treated the League Cup as a way to bed in players and build for future success.

 

[Lanolin]

Wilson was clearly tied down by the Welsh early doors. There’s always been a sense of progression in that it’s gone L2 (or 1 wherever Crewe were at the time - Championship- PL). We don’t seem to have that.

I think Hornby has stood out as an anachronism in our side for years. 20-30 years ago he’d be celebrated, but just doesn’t look like a modern PL forward. I’d say you get the idea by 19.

Completely agree though, some want it all ways up. I’d rather we treated the League Cup as a way to bed in players and build for future success.

Nah, Wilson had a short loan at 18 and then had over 2 years back playing junior football before going back out on loan just before his 21st birthday. He spent the years that you're suggesting players should be out on loan in their academy. Either he's a terrible example of your argument, or there's no difference between how we handle players. You're trying to argue two contradictory points.

The key thing is that players have to perform on their loans if they're going to move up the ladder. Wilson scored at better than 1 in 2 in his first Championship loan so a better Championship club wanted him, then he was a stand out for them so a PL club wanted him. Look at the reports of our loanees last season in their thread and you'll see why none of them have moved up a level - they weren't performing. You can have all the plans and pathways you want, but teams have got to want to take your players. I'm absolutely positive that we haven't planned for Connolly to go down a level, or for Robinson and Williams to only earn us a couple of million, but if they don't stand out then nobody better is going to come in for them.

 

[T LEAFE]

We could recall Penno and Garbo as cover

 

[GrandOldTeam]

That’s what I’m talking about, bending the facts to suit the argument. Harry Wilson was so highly rated he was given a full international cap at 16, and yet Liverpool have only got him a PL gig at 22. There was no clear plan, in fact it’s borderline incompetence.

Even if we pretend that Wilson works in your argument, why have his mates like Ojo, ejaria, woodburn, Kent etc done the same as our lot if they’re so much better at it as a club?

We have kept some players for too long, undoubtedly. Pennington being the obvious one in recent times, and now there’s the charsley debate. Other than that I don’t think it’s a problem we really have. I know you used the example of Fraser hornby which I Just can’t agree with at all. Saying a 19 year old has been kept ‘way past’ a reasonable point is stretching the credibility of the point far beyond where it can be taken seriously.

It makes me laugh how much people (not necessarily you) contradict themselves when it comes to these things. You’ve got people complaining that we’ve not tied Gibson down, but also complaining that we end up keeping players too long. The same people are stamping their feet saying how sick they are of us not taking cups seriously and playing our strongest team, and then saying ‘can’t believe this completely untested 19 year old centre half wasn’t given a game in the cup’. It’s crazy.

Laughing at "bending facts to suit the argument"

People do tend to use facts to support an argument.

There's never going to be a 100% hit rate - but my point was loan football in the lower leagues > U23 football.

Only today;

Premier League: English under-21 playing time hits 12-season high

Game time for English players aged 21 and under at Premier League clubs is at its highest level in 12 seasons.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Chelsea have contributed to this significantly by fielding striker Tammy Abraham, midfielder Mason Mount and defender Fikayo Tomori, who all came through the club's academy. "

All three went out on loan rather than sit in the U23 league.

Mount is 20, has had a spell at Vitesse and Derby.
Abraham is 21, has had a spell at Bristol, Swansea, an Villa.
Tomori is 20, has had a spell at Brighton, Hull and Derby.

Sure, for every Abraham, Mount an Tomori you can point to a Rashford, Greenwood and McTominay - you'd be there all day trading names off - but considering Everton are pissing the under 23 level, why aren't we seeing any of them near the squad? Has Silva actually named any academy graduate in a competitive match day squad?

We have Marco Silva and David Unsworth try and explain the reasoning in recent weeks as needing to learn mens football.

Only today, Markelo has come out and said he's bored of U23 after and wants to play mens football. Who can blame him? He's coming up to 21 and won all there is at that level - why languish around any longer?

I just think the gap between Everton's senior squad and U23 seems too big, if the clubs management are saying the players at that level need to learn mens football - if that level won't allow you to assess whether a player is ready, why not find out by sending them out on loan?

So, if Anthony Gordon isn't getting in the senior squad this season - send him to Oldham or Wigan. The same was true, in my opinion, last year with Gibson. As per the first post in this thread, what else did we have to learn/assess from him by another season at that level?

Can't blame the lad at all if he chooses to get off to play mens football. He doesn't owe Everton anything.

 

[Lanolin]

Laughing at "bending facts to suit the argument"

People do tend to use facts to support an argument.

There's never going to be a 100% hit rate - but my point was loan football in the lower leagues > U23 football.

Only today;

Premier League: English under-21 playing time hits 12-season high

Game time for English players aged 21 and under at Premier League clubs is at its highest level in 12 seasons.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Chelsea have contributed to this significantly by fielding striker Tammy Abraham, midfielder Mason Mount and defender Fikayo Tomori, who all came through the club's academy. "

All three went out on loan rather than sit in the U23 league.

Mount is 20, has had a spell at Vitesse and Derby.
Abraham is 21, has had a spell at Bristol, Swansea, an Villa.
Tomori is 20, has had a spell at Brighton, Hull and Derby.

Sure, for every Abraham, Mount an Tomori you can point to a Rashford, Greenwood and McTominay - you'd be there all day trading names off - but considering Everton are pissing the under 23 level, why aren't we seeing any of them near the squad? Has Silva actually named any academy graduate in a competitive match day squad?

We have Marco Silva and David Unsworth try and explain the reasoning in recent weeks as needing to learn mens football.

Only today, Markelo has come out and said he's bored of U23 after and wants to play mens football. Who can blame him? He's coming up to 21 and won all there is at that level - why languish around any longer?

I just think the gap between Everton's senior squad and U23 seems too big, if the clubs management are saying the players at that level need to learn mens football - if that level won't allow you to assess whether a player is ready, why not find out by sending them out on loan?

So, if Anthony Gordon isn't getting in the senior squad this season - send him to Oldham or Wigan. The same was true, in my opinion, last year with Gibson. As per the first post in this thread, what else did we have to learn/assess from him by another season at that level?

Can't blame the lad at all if he chooses to get off to play mens football. He doesn't owe Everton anything.

Laughing at you thinking using and bending are synonyms.

You've pretty much showed your point to be redundant in the course of your own post. There are players who've succeeded after loans, there are players who've succeeded without loans, there are players who have kicked on after a loan, there are players who've gone backwards after a loan. After considering all this, you've come to the conclusion that you should send everyone on loan. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you can't pretend that's a logical conclusion to reach based on the facts you're presenting because it's not, it's just an opinion. You might as well leave out the rest of the post because it doesn't support what you're saying.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Laughing at you thinking using and bending are synonyms.

You've pretty much showed your point to be redundant in the course of your own post. There are players who've succeeded after loans, there are players who've succeeded without loans, there are players who have kicked on after a loan, there are players who've gone backwards after a loan. After considering all this, you've come to the conclusion that you should send everyone on loan. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you can't pretend that's a logical conclusion to reach based on the facts you're presenting because it's not, it's just an opinion. You might as well leave out the rest of the post because it doesn't support what you're saying.

I can when the clubs own management are using "needing to learn mens football" as the reasoning why the academy graduates aren't getting near the senior team.

Laughing at you thinking using and bending are synonyms.

You've said a few times now that people are "bending facts to suit the argument"

Generally, people do look to support their argument/opinion with facts. That doesn't mean their argument or opinion is factual - rarely is anything so absolute.

You've pretty much showed your point to be redundant in the course of your own post. There are players who've succeeded after loans, there are players who've succeeded without loans, there are players who have kicked on after a loan, there are players who've gone backwards after a loan.

Nope, it shows wider thinking and balance in presenting an opinion.

A rarity in a digital world.

Again, there's no absolute here.

After considering all this, you've come to the conclusion that you should send everyone on loan.

No I haven't.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you can't pretend that's a logical conclusion to reach based on the facts you're presenting because it's not, it's just an opinion.

Of course it's just an opinion. What else would it be?

You might as well leave out the rest of the post because it doesn't support what you're saying.

No, because that would be ignorant and I'm not in court representing a client.

 

[Lanolin]

I can when the clubs own management are using "needing to learn mens football" as the reasoning why the academy graduates aren't getting near the senior team.



You've said a few times now that people are "bending facts to suit the argument"

Generally, people do look to support their argument/opinion with facts. That doesn't mean their argument or opinion is factual - rarely is anything so absolute.



Nope, it shows wider thinking and balance in presenting an opinion.

A rarity in a digital world.

Again, there's no absolute here.



No I haven't.



Of course it's just an opinion. What else would it be?



No, because that would be ignorant and I'm not in court representing a client.

Ok, let me explain. You're saying Unsworth talked about needing to learn men's football, and using it to support the idea that players need to go out on loan. It's a fact that he talked about needing to learn men's football but by removing the context of the comment you're completely changing the point of what he said. His underlying point was that Ellis Simms was benefitting from working closely with the coaches at Everton and that this had seen him improve rapidly. In other words, going on loan would have robbed him of the opportunity to do the things which are making him a better player. So you've used a fact, but you've bent it to suit your argument. It's like a film poster saying Empire said it was 'brilliant' when they actually said it was 'far from brilliant'.

Of course we're all just giving our opinion, I just meant that it was kind of pointless saying Mount, Tomori and Abraham all had loans and therefore they're a good thing, if you're also going to concede that there are just as many examples of players coming through without them. It seemed like you were trying to use them to support your hypothesis when they don't really, but fair enough if I misunderstood.

 

[Cameron Manning]

....and you will see from the youth team thread that I initially highlighted Gibson’s contract situation a long time ago. I’ve also been highlighting it on the ‘conference’ and other threads in the hope somebody would ask the question of Silva or Brands. I’ve been like a broken record about this lad for a long time, I rated him so highly.

I actually think the club have done alright by him. He’d just turned 18 at the start of last season, i’m not sure which clubs will have wanted him on loan at that stage, but points are precious in the lower leagues and I genuinely think an 18 year old CB would’ve struggled for game time. I think that’s the reality. He’s stepped up to the first team squad this pre-season, he now trains full time with the squad.

Not sure what more the club could’ve done. It’s naive to think any player in his situation is not thinking of the financial benefits of a Bosman. A move to Newcastle is mooted, it’s unlikely he’ll be a regular. Wherever he goes he’ll have to work his way into the team.

I absolutely agree there’s a debate to be had about the worth of U23 football.

I agree entirely with that Eggs, seems to me Everton have tried to keep Gibson here with a new contract but Gibson/ his agent have stalled and are looking for a better deal elsewhere. Gibson is not a winger or midfielder where it is easier to take a chance and give him game time, he is a centre back, a very young centre back in a very demanding position, as good and as promising as he is I think you would be taking a big risk playing him now, especially in this very fragile Everton defence. It looks like we’ll lose him to another club because Gibson is impatient to play first team football now. We will make a small profit on him now, it’s a pity, in as much as he’s got a great deal of potential to be a very good player.

 

[PhilM]

I wonder why we havent put fresh terms in front of Gibson?

Could it be that were waiting as long as possible before deciding whether to boost him up to a 1st team level salary?

Who knows. He was told he couldn't go out on loan because of our lack of cover at the back, yet hasn't been given any opportunity to actually show his worth.

It's all well and good people saying he must commit to the club, however the club haven't offered Lewis (and other U23 players) the opportunity to do so.

I agree entirely with that Eggs, seems to me Everton have tried to keep Gibson here with a new contract but Gibson/ his agent have stalled and are looking for a better deal elsewhere.

No meeting has taken place between Lewis, his representatives and the club; let alone a deal being offered to him and it being rejected. Same with Feeney.

 

[Nymzee]

I suspect if he wants to go back to Newcastle it might have something to do with seeing the Longstaff brothers getting a chance.

Not sure he realises that's because their midfield is wank whereas Lascelles and Schar aren't.

 

[Raino85]

Nah, Wilson had a short loan at 18 and then had over 2 years back playing junior football before going back out on loan just before his 21st birthday. He spent the years that you're suggesting players should be out on loan in their academy. Either he's a terrible example of your argument, or there's no difference between how we handle players. You're trying to argue two contradictory points.

The key thing is that players have to perform on their loans if they're going to move up the ladder. Wilson scored at better than 1 in 2 in his first Championship loan so a better Championship club wanted him, then he was a stand out for them so a PL club wanted him. Look at the reports of our loanees last season in their thread and you'll see why none of them have moved up a level - they weren't performing. You can have all the plans and pathways you want, but teams have got to want to take your players. I'm absolutely positive that we haven't planned for Connolly to go down a level, or for Robinson and Williams to only earn us a couple of million, but if they don't stand out then nobody better is going to come in for them.

You cant really argue against that. A good comparison to Wilson is Kieran Dowell. Hasent kicked on from his good loan at Nottingham Forest. If he started doing what Wilson did at Derby than im sure his value would go up or next year we would be looking at PL loans or a decent fee

 

[Eggs]

Who knows. He was told he couldn't go out on loan because of our lack of cover at the back, yet hasn't been given any opportunity to actually show his worth.

It's all well and good people saying he must commit to the club, however the club haven't offered Lewis (and other U23 players) the opportunity to do so.


No meeting has taken place between Lewis, his representatives and the club; let alone a deal being offered to him and it being rejected. Same with Feeney.

...i assume you have knowledge of the situation, Phil, so i’m amazed that no discussions have taken place and a contract offered. I can understand Feeney not being offered a new deal, he appears to have no future at Everton but Gibson didn’t come cheap and is still a good age.

I can only think the club have given him a chance pre-season and are not convinced. Very surprised, though. Saying that, much better decisions are made now unlike the daft one to give Pennington a 3 year deal.

 

[Goat]

...i assume you have knowledge of the situation, Phil, so i’m amazed that no discussions have taken place and a contract offered. I can understand Feeney not being offered a new deal, he appears to have no future at Everton but Gibson didn’t come cheap and is still a good age.

I can only think the club have given him a chance pre-season and are not convinced. Very surprised, though. Saying that, much better decisions are made now unlike the daft one to give Pennington a 3 year deal.

1m is cheap, in todays money.