Current Affairs Labour and Anti Semitism.......

[tsubaki]

Meanwhile Margaret Hodge seems to have Corbyn by the goolies........and quite rightly.....

It is somewhat bizarre that the first Labour leader to actually implement a definition - any definition - of antisemitism and the first Labour leader to deal with members for anti-semitic abuse is the one who gets called an anti-semite and a racist.

 

[peteblue]

i have a slight feeling that you are more interested in the damage anti-semitism can do to the labour party than you are of stopping anti-semitism...

No, the clue is in the Title. Of all the things that I could throw at Corbyn and the Labour Party, the one thing that I should absolutely not be able to throw is anti-semitism, and for Labour supporters to even try to justify or support them on this is disgraceful.....I haven’t got a clue why the Labour Party is still persisting with this idiocy.....

 

[peteblue]

It is somewhat bizarre that the first Labour leader to actually implement a definition - any definition - of antisemitism and the first Labour leader to deal with members for anti-semitic abuse is the one who gets called an anti-semite and a racist.

What is bizarre is that there is an agreed definition, accepted by pretty well everyone, that Labour have watered down....

 

[tsubaki]

What is bizarre is that there is an agreed definition, accepted by pretty well everyone, that Labour have watered down....

not the Tories though, at least until last week when Channel Four caught the PM lying at the despatch box (again)

 

[peteblue]

not the Tories though, at least until last week when Channel Four caught the PM lying at the despatch box (again)

This thread has nothing to do with any other party or subject, we have more than enough of those......

 

[tsubaki]

This thread has nothing to do with any other party or subject, we have more than enough of those......

"accepted by pretty well everyone" becomes "this has nothing to do with any other party or subject" within five minutes

well done lad

 

[Tubey]

Anyone with any objectivity would look at what Corbyn has done over this and rightly criticise him for it. He's been a total idiot on this issue.

As said, he clearly has issues with Israel and hates the very notion of it. And, as said before, that's actually totally fine - it's not anti-semitism; it's anti-Israel, which is a valid view to have - but he needs to come out and say it instead of pathetic attempts at half-measures that anyone and everyone can see through.

For a man of supposed integrity, he doesn't half lack it on this subject.

 

[Tubey]

not the Tories though, at least until last week when Channel Four caught the PM lying at the despatch box (again)

So it's not a lie is it - it blanket covers religion and the UK is signed up to those definitions, meaning the Tory rulebook aligns with it.

The Tories just accept the definitions as common sense; whereas Labour have chosen to conscious omit parts of the definition because they ideologically want to be anti-Israel due to the politics of their leader.

Furthermore, when brought to their attention, they updated it immediately because they had absolutely no reason not to, as they already aligned with it.

 

[tsubaki]

So it's not a lie is it - it blanket covers religion and the UK is signed up to those definitions, meaning the Tory rulebook aligns with it.

The Tories just accept the definitions as common sense; whereas Labour have chosen to conscious omit parts of the definition because they ideologically want to be anti-Israel due to the politics of their leader.

Furthermore, when brought to their attention, they updated it immediately because they had absolutely no reason not to, as they already aligned with it.

bless

 

[Number_25]

“In the Labour code it is no longer likely to be antisemitic “to accuse Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations”. The code simply says this is “wrong”, as if imprecise or uncivil language is the problem, rather than the prevalence of antisemitic attitudes. Yet this charge, that Jews cannot be trusted or must always be suspected of having a hidden agenda, is central to the old-fashioned, rightwing antisemitism that the Labour party claims to oppose.”

This is a lie, tantamount to slander.

Excerpt from the actual Labour NEC report:

"Care must be taken when dealing with these topics. The fact of Israel’s description as a Jewish state does not make it permissible to hold Jewish people or institutions in general responsible for alleged misconduct on the part of that state (see paragraph 9.g.). In addition, it is wrong to apply double standards by requiring more vociferous condemnation of such actions from Jewish people or organisations than from others – a form of racist treatment also all too common in other contexts, eg. holding Muslims or Muslim organisations to a higher standard than others as regards condemnation of illegal or violent acts by self-defining “Islamic” organisations or states (such as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan). It is also wrong to accuse Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."

“Similarly, the IHRA definition says it is antisemitic to compare Israel to Nazi Germany, but Labour’s code says this is only the case if there is “evidence of antisemitic intent”: a caveat it attaches to all “contentious views” relating to Israel. Nor does Labour’s code agree with IHRA that it is antisemitic to argue that the very idea of a state for the Jewish people is a “racist endeavour”.

Thus in today’s Labour party, it is possible to argue that Israel is a Nazi-like state that should be wiped from the map, and that any Jews who say otherwise are probably paid by Israel to do so, and not be hauled up for antisemitism. You may be told that your language is insensitive or impolite and asked to go on an education course, but your anti-racist reputation will remain intact.”

There you go.......

As for the second point, it is not anti-Semitic to draw parallels between a previous fascist regime and the political actions of the state of Israel.

Moreover, if I were to stand up in public and articulate a belief in the formation of a homogeneous ethnonationalistic state - I would be rightfully castigated as a racist and thrown out of the Labour Party immediately. What's with this exceptionalism?

 

[Tubey]

bless

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-leads-the-way-in-tackling-anti-semitism

It is what it is. The Tory government adopted that definition - the fact they didn't have it defined in their own rulebook is by and large irrelevent. It's a technicality and you know it - the fact they were able to fix it so quickly proves as much; it isn't an issue for them - it most certainly is for Corbyn's Labour.

 

[Tubey]

As for the second point, it is not anti-Semitic to draw parallels between a previous fascist regime and the political actions of the state of Israel.

I agree - so why can't Labour come out and have this as official policy?

Fixes the issue doesn't it? "We're not anti-semitic; we're anti-Israel - Labour does not support Israel. We believe their actions are akin to Nazi Germany."

Instead, they fart around the issue and fail to get a grip with it, leaving the ambiguity.

 

[tsubaki]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-leads-the-way-in-tackling-anti-semitism

It is what it is. The Tory government adopted that definition - the fact they didn't have it defined in their own rulebook is by and large irrelevent. It's a technicality and you know it - the fact they were able to fix it so quickly proves as much; it isn't an issue for them - it most certainly is for Corbyn's Labour.

Tubey - the PM said, at the despatch box, that the Tory Party (which is not the British Government, however much it thinks it is) had specifically signed up to the IHRA definition of antisemitism and all its annexes.

On what date did that signing-up take place?

 

[tsubaki]

I agree - so why can't Labour come out and have this as official policy?

Fixes the issue doesn't it? "We're not anti-semitic; we're anti-Israel - Labour does not support Israel. We believe their actions are akin to Nazi Germany."

Instead, they fart around the issue and fail to get a grip with it, leaving the ambiguity.

er - that would probably be a breach of Labour's definition of antisemitism, as well as the IHRA's.

 

[Number_25]

I agree - so why can't Labour come out and have this as official policy?

Fixes the issue doesn't it? "We're not anti-semitic; we're anti-Israel - Labour does not support Israel. We believe their actions are akin to Nazi Germany."

Instead, they fart around the issue and fail to get a grip with it, leaving the ambiguity.

The Labour Party, as a body, is not anti-Israeli. If France, or Ireland were to enact the same sort of policies - we'd be equally as harsh on them too.

Personally speaking, I don't believe in a two state solution. For that to exist, you need both sides to agree to it - something that'll never happen. If I had it my way, I'd have the entire place UN-controlled, with the look of creating a single wholly democratic "Israeli-Palestinian" state. But I also understand that I am of the minority within the Labour Party, and that's ok.