Jordan Peterson Thread.

[ilikecheese]

Ok. I'm gonna try break down your brick wall.

The article writer, all those commenters I quoted, the other article writer on JP I posted just above that, and myself...in summary we all don't like the truth you've identified (which is that the Right's version of identity-politics is the problem). Instead we blame the Left's identity-politics. But that version is virtuous as it has policies of inclusion and acceptance.

So why are we fighting against what you clearly believe are policies of inclusion and acceptance?

That has to be your intellectual curiousity: why are we fighting this thing which in your mind is virtuous?

Honestly I have no idea why the right choose to demonize minority/marginalized groups other than it's easier to win votes and stir outrage by doing so.

Divide and conquer. It's not like this is a new thing. The right in this country have been stoking fears about anyone who is slightly different than them forever. Rush Limbaugh has made a long and lucrative career out of it.

 

[ilikecheese]

That has to be your intellectual curiousity: why are we fighting this thing which in your mind is virtuous?

Because you fear a changing world?

I honestly don't know...other than acceptance of change is hard.

 

[dholliday]

Honestly I have no idea why the right choose to demonize minority/marginalized groups other than it's easier to win votes and stir outrage by doing so.

Divide and conquer. It's not like this is a new thing. The right in this country have been stoking fears about anyone who is slightly different than them forever. Rush Limbaugh has made a long and lucrative career out of it.

Because you fear a changing world?

I honestly don't know...other than acceptance of change is hard.

Ok. It sounds like you believe the right and you are the same thing. When you say the right have been doing these things you describe, you mean by extension the writers of all these comments I'm linking (including my own). We're stoking fears by laying into leftist-identity-politics because we fear demographic changes in our society.

Does that sound about accurate?

 

[ilikecheese]

Ok. It sounds like you believe the right and you are the same thing. When you say the right have been doing these things you describe, you mean by extension the writers of all these comments I'm linking (including my own). We're stoking fears by laying into leftist-identity-politics because we fear demographic changes in our society.

Does that sound about accurate?

Very interesting how you parse words and don't actually address the posts.

 

[dholliday]

Very interesting how you parse words and don't actually address the posts.

What posts? That Limbaugh is a bad troll and Trump said mean things about Mexicans, and they can be described as rightwing and stoking fears? And by extension many of their voters, followers & supporters? That they fear change and want to make USA 'great' again? There's a solid argument for that. Some pros & contra but your view on this has some basis in reality.

That's not the debate, tho'.


The important bit tho' is this: are the writers of those comments I've linked also stoking fears because they fear demographic changes? They also have rightwing tendencies and aren't far removed from the Trumps/Limbaughs of this world?

 

[LinekersLegs]

@LinekersLegs - this SNL skit says a few things about sexual harrassment in the workplace (and undesirable men's place in the sexual hierachy) that JP also says...thought it maybe interesting to link. Comedy has a way of slicing through the fat to get to the meat:

“The uploader has not made this video available in your country”

 

[ilikecheese]

What posts? That Limbaugh is a bad troll and Trump said mean things about Mexicans, and they can be described as rightwing and stoking fears? And by extension many of their voters, followers & supporters? That they fear change and want to make USA 'great' again? There's a solid argument for that. Some pros & contra but your view on this has some basis in reality.

That's not the debate, tho'.


The important bit tho' is this: are the writers of those comments I've linked also stoking fears because they fear demographic changes? They also have rightwing tendencies and aren't far removed from the Trumps/Limbaughs of this world?

Why don't you just tell me the answer to your original question that you think is the right answer since I didn't answer it how you'd prefer.

Would save us both time and energy.

 

[dholliday]

“The uploader has not made this video available in your country”

That's surprising. Normally it's the other way around where we in Germany can't watch a lot of US-copyrighted vids. It's the official SNL channel too.

Here's another upload:

Why don't you just tell me the answer to your original question that you think is the right answer since I didn't answer it how you'd prefer.

You haven't answered it at all. You're actively avoiding the question because it represents your blind spot, your brick wall.

You know you can't say that all these people are rightwing fearmongers, that would be too ridiculous.

So if they're not, but there's so many of them, then why are they all saying the same thing? Once you consider this, then you start questioning leftist-identity-politics yourself. And you don't want to do that as it clashes with your belief system.

We see such blind spots in debates between a religious person and a non-believer. Blind faith in an idealism (whether supernatural or not) is a very strong thing...stronger than most brick walls. Because if we can't trust our instinctive idealism, then what the hell is going on?

Fear of the unknown indeed...

...but on the bright side you're still supercurious, hence you keep responding.

I hope our debates don't come across unfriendly or patronising. In person I'm sure we'd both be cheerfully interested & engaged. Words on a screen are bit impersonal.


If you feel I'm way off then it's all good. We tried.

 

[ilikecheese]

That's surprising. Normally it's the other way around where we in Germany can't watch a lot of US-copyrighted vids. It's the official SNL channel too.

Here's another upload:






You haven't answered it at all. You're actively avoiding the question because it represents your blind spot, your brick wall.

You know you can't say that all these people are rightwing fearmongers, that would be too ridiculous.

So if they're not, but there's so many of them, then why are they all saying the same thing? Once you consider this, then you start questioning leftist-identity-politics yourself. And you don't want to do that as it clashes with your belief system.

We see such blind spots in debates between a religious person and a non-believer. Blind faith in an idealism (whether supernatural or not) is a very strong thing...stronger than most brick walls. Because if we can't trust our instinctive idealism, then what the hell is going on?

Fear of the unknown indeed...

...but on the bright side you're still supercurious, hence you keep responding.

I hope our debates don't come across unfriendly or patronising. In person I'm sure we'd both be cheerfully interested & engaged. Words on a screen are bit impersonal.


If you feel I'm way off then it's all good. We tried.

You seem to think that leftist identity politics are bad, but what you fail to accept is that they exist because of right wing identity politics. If you find them divisive then I have to question what mental place you are coming from.

It's like you think we live in a utopian society where everyone identifies as human and nothing more.

You used Steve Bannon's quote earlier. The purveyor of extreme right wing opinion, and I honestly believe his quote was accurate because of how he could use it to his advatage by playing his own version of identity politics.

 

[LinekersLegs]

That's surprising. Normally it's the other way around where we in Germany can't watch a lot of US-copyrighted vids. It's the official SNL channel too.

Here's another upload:






You haven't answered it at all. You're actively avoiding the question because it represents your blind spot, your brick wall.

You know you can't say that all these people are rightwing fearmongers, that would be too ridiculous.

So if they're not, but there's so many of them, then why are they all saying the same thing? Once you consider this, then you start questioning leftist-identity-politics yourself. And you don't want to do that as it clashes with your belief system.

We see such blind spots in debates between a religious person and a non-believer. Blind faith in an idealism (whether supernatural or not) is a very strong thing...stronger than most brick walls. Because if we can't trust our instinctive idealism, then what the hell is going on?

Fear of the unknown indeed...

...but on the bright side you're still supercurious, hence you keep responding.

I hope our debates don't come across unfriendly or patronising. In person I'm sure we'd both be cheerfully interested & engaged. Words on a screen are bit impersonal.


If you feel I'm way off then it's all good. We tried.

“This video contains content from NBC universal which has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds” - they really don’t want me to watch!

 

[dholliday]

You seem to think that leftist identity politics are bad, but what you fail to accept is that they exist because of right wing identity politics. If you find them divisive then I have to question what mental place you are coming from. It's like you think we live in a utopian society where everyone identifies as human and nothing more.

I admit it's better than tainting everyone with the bad Nazi label (which you haven't done, but I've seen it...the horrors).

You're thinking the extreme opposite of what it happening, tho'. Critics of leftist identity-politics are displaying individualism, not homogenous thinking, as they come from all kinds of backgrounds and disagree with each other on tons of other stuff.

If you tried that line on mainstream comment boards you'd be greeted more with an "eh?" than anything else. It's not a followable point.

“This video contains content from NBC universal which has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds” - they really don’t want me to watch!

I don't think you'd like the point the video is making, but as it's Saturday Night Live I thought you'd give it a chance. I know some beta males (for want of a better term) would relate to that skit.

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood: the skit, nor any fair-minded men who relate to it, nor I, condone actual harrassment in any form. The skit is more talking about the vast majority of flirty interactions in the workplace which aren't harrassment but are wanted or unwanted depending on who is doing the flirting.

 

[ilikecheese]

I admit it's better than tainting everyone with the bad Nazi label (which you haven't done, but I've seen it...the horrors).

You're thinking the extreme opposite of what it happening, tho'. Critics of leftist identity-politics are displaying individualism, not homogenous thinking, as they come from all kinds of backgrounds and disagree with each other on tons of other stuff.

If you tried that line on mainstream comment boards you'd be greeted more with an "eh?" than anything else. It's not a followable point.




I don't think you'd like the point the video is making, but as it's Saturday Night Live I thought you'd give it a chance. I know some beta males (for want of a better term) would relate to that skit.

Just to make sure I'm not misunderstood: the skit, nor any fair-minded men who relate to it, nor I, condone actual harrassment in any form. The skit is more talking about the vast majority of flirty interactions in the workplace which aren't harrassment but are wanted or unwanted depending on who is doing the flirting.

So take 2 minutes of your life to explain to me, as your seemingly polar self, to tell me the correct answer that you think is the answer to you initial question.

For me this whole identity politics complaints/resistance started somewhere around gay marriage and/or trans acceptance.

 

[dholliday]

So take 2 minutes of your life to explain to me, as your seemingly polar self, to tell me the correct answer that you think is the answer to you initial question.

For me this whole identity politics complaints/resistance started somewhere around gay marriage and/or trans acceptance.

I answered it (who are the critics of leftist identity-politics?) in the post you're quoting right now. Here it is again:

Critics of identity-politics are displaying individualism, not homogenous thinking, as they come from all kinds of backgrounds and disagree with each other on tons of other stuff.

And just to add to that: these critics (including me) are against identity politics because it causes division and thus ultimately promotes (however unwittingly) negative things like Trump, Brexit or AfD.

Debating what came first: the rightwing chicken or the leftwing egg, is not really useful. Debating what's causing the most division right now is useful. as we can change aspects of right now.

The main way to realise identity-politics is causing more division than Trump/Brexit/AfD is to consider who is dividing:

Effects of leftist identity-politics: division between people traditionally liberal/left. This weakens the overall liberal/left cause and thus strengthens the rightwing cause.

Effects or rightwing identity-politics: division between leftwing & rightwing people. This doesn't weaken either cause.

 

[ilikecheese]

I answered it (who are the critics of leftist identity-politics?) in the post you're quoting right now. Here it is again:

Critics of identity-politics are displaying individualism, not homogenous thinking, as they come from all kinds of backgrounds and disagree with each other on tons of other stuff.

And just to add to that: these critics (including me) are against identity politics because it causes division and thus ultimately promotes (however unwittingly) negative things like Trump, Brexit or AfD.

Debating what came first: the rightwing chicken or the leftwing egg, is not really useful. Debating what's causing the most division right now is useful. as we can change aspects of right now.

The main way to realise identity-politics is causing more division than Trump/Brexit/AfD is to consider who is dividing:

Effects of leftist identity-politics: division between people traditionally liberal/left. This weakens the overall liberal/left cause and thus strengthens the rightwing cause.

Effects or rightwing identity-politics: division between leftwing & rightwing people. This doesn't weaken either cause.

That was definitely more than 2 minutes of your life.

I have to laugh at the idea that someone fighting the good fight against exclusion and bigotry is somhow twisted into someone who is creating division.

You have to do some major mental compartmentalizing to come to that conclusion.

This entire identity politics argument is a right wing attempt to normalize bigotry in a new language. The thing is they've been trying to convince the world for centuries that X demographic is a danger. You get lost in the details instead of looking at it with a broad view.

 

[ilikecheese]

That was definitely more than 2 minutes of your life.

I have to laugh at the idea that someone fighting the good fight against exclusion and bigotry is somhow twisted into someone who is creating division.

You have to do some major mental compartmentalizing to come to that conclusion.

This entire identity politics argument is a right wing attempt to normalize bigotry in a new language. The thing is they've been trying to convince the world for centuries that X demographic is a danger. You get lost in the details instead of looking at it with a broad view.

Unless of course you expect humans to collectively denounce their tribes that they've developed throughout their history to become individuals.

Then in this case in this utopia identity politics have no place.

In the real world where minorities are painted as demons by the Right wing of anywhere.earth they are necessary.