Jordan Peterson Thread.

[dholliday]

This thread specifically the last 10 pages has been highly entertaining.

Grown men fawning over some guy who is nothing more than a modern day motivational speaker. Like those con men in the 90's and early 00's going around telling people the bleeding obvious trying to give them confidence and feel like they belong and making a mint doing so through their word and merchandise they pedal.

Granted Peterson does it with a twist, mind you. He comes across smarter than most of them did/do and does actually hold degrees and experience to back them up. But he seemingly is happy to take the direction of his words based on reaction from people be they positive or negative. He is the live version of a twitter troll.

From the many videos that are out there it seems he gets caught out quite a bit and then tries to shift focus or admits he may have misspoken and then follows it with a but....

It is clear i have seen several videos and interviews now and his views on the woman's role is a bit dated and its why he has so many incel types supporting him. Ask yourself why?

He feeds of their angst and frustration in my opinion. The fact he is attracting them in the first place tells you he must be saying things that agree with their own beliefs.

He is pretty consistent with his own views on women not much like anything else he says.

One important point which often gets overlooked is that JP's followers aren't by a long shot all "incel-types" or alt-right sorts.

I discussed this before: should everyone who gets something out of the wide-range of JP's talks get tarred with the same brush as those who only get a kick out of his traditionalist views on women?

Insidious - proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects.

Yes I believe that suggesting what a person wears makes them partially responsible for assault in the workplace is harmful as it perpetuates an excuse that has been used by predators for decades.

I also think that it is harmful to the mental recovery of victims of such assault.

I believe it also decreases the reporting of incidences as people wonder if it was their fault, or if people will assume it is, which in turn leads to those predators being able to operate for longer.

I also believe that sexual assault is far more about dominance/power/humiliation than it is about sexual attraction so it is at best unhelpful to focus on what the person was wearing - plenty of men and women have been assaulted without any so called provocative behavior/clothing,

Agree with all that except I still wouldn't use the word insidious, as there's no indication his traditionalist views on women are gradually making his male followers lessen their respect for women. Those (I venture small minority) who were already misogynist pigs will continue to be so.

While there's an argument misogynist pigmen will feel emboldened to act like an arsehole towards a woman when they hear someone like JP espouse traditionalist views on womanhood, we'd have to consider if that empowerment is on JP or not. I know @ilikecheese argued that it is, our disagreement is well-documented, but in short JP is not advocating, not even subliminally, that men mistreat women in any slight form. That's on them.

 

[SteveSC]

One important point which often gets overlooked is that JP's followers aren't by a long shot all "incel-types" or alt-right sorts.

I discussed this before: should everyone who gets something out of the wide-range of JP's talks get tarred with the same brush as those who only get a kick out of his traditionalist views on women?
.

I think you will find i never said they were all incel types. I said "he has so many incel types supporting him ". What i was driving at that they are listening to him and see value in his words and why is that?

Also I never even mentioned the alt right so not sure were you got that.

You seem to get very defensive to the point that you add stuff that is irrelevant to the post you are replying to and you think we are labeling you the same. I do understand that people/clubs/groups can have different sorts and types following them. Sure much like this forum. We all support Everton but many of us are different and hold different views.

So again stop thinking i am calling you or anyone is calling you alt right or incel or whatever paranoia has you thinking.

 

[ilikecheese]

Showing contempt towards women is not a tradition that should be carried on...not sure if it ever was one to be honest.

 

[dholliday]

You seem to get very defensive to the point that you add stuff that is irrelevant to the post you are replying to and you think we are labeling you the same. I do understand that people/clubs/groups can have different sorts and types following them.

So again stop thinking i am calling you or anyone is calling you alt right or incel or whatever paranoia has you thinking.

Eh? Where you getting all that? You're seeing heightened emotions when there are none. I'm being measured, as are all of you. It's been a sound discussion. I'm not being defensive or paranoid and I know none of you think I'm an incel type or racist or whatever. It's been interesting to get two clashing views together. We might be closer to a consensus now than we were 10 pages ago, which is a sign of sound discussion.

I probably should've also included cheese's post as my reply to you was sort of directed at what both of you were saying:

Insidious...what a word LL. It defines the Alt-Right movement so perfectly...or whatever we are calling folks like Peterson these days and their insidious message.

Peterson's extremely narrow demographic of followers is a massive alarm bell...he attracts an extreme beyond extreme demographic of followers.

 

[LinekersLegs]

One important point which often gets overlooked is that JP's followers aren't by a long shot all "incel-types" or alt-right sorts.

I discussed this before: should everyone who gets something out of the wide-range of JP's talks get tarred with the same brush as those who only get a kick out of his traditionalist views on women?




Agree with all that except I still wouldn't use the word insidious, as there's no indication his traditionalist views on women are gradually making his male followers lessen their respect for women. Those (I venture small minority) who were already misogynist pigs will continue to be so.

While there's an argument misogynist pigmen will feel emboldened to act like an arsehole towards a woman when they hear someone like JP espouse traditionalist views on womanhood, we'd have to consider if that empowerment is on JP or not. I know @ilikecheese argued that it is, our disagreement is well-documented, but in short JP is not advocating, not even subliminally, that men mistreat women in any slight form. That's on them.

They also are not improving their respect for women either. Petterson challenges his audience to improve to why not on this issue?

How about this , try to look at this from a woman’s perspective so a simple question - if you were a young woman who wore heels and makeup to work and was being sexually harrassed by her male co-worker does seeing Pettersons’s video make you more or less likely to report him?

How do you think would it make you feel emotionally? You’re already going to feel guilt, confusion amd worry on the consequences - does Petterson exacerbate or reduce those ferlings?

You quite clearly don’t think a woman in that situation has any responsibility for the assaulters actions but I am unclear how you get that assesment from Petterson’s words.

In that extended video he talks about Mao’s wearing of suits to “stop that sort of thing from happening” as if either sexual assualt in Mao’s time (or even current miltilary) didn’t/doesn’t happen. Indeed around 9 mins in he explicitly says women wearing makeup contributes to sexual harrassment in the workplace.

He is quite clearly blaming to some extent the victim and I find that a very harmful message for a figure such as him to send given how much influence he could have to charge perceptions.

 

[Prevenger17]

Let D like Peterson ffs.

 

[ilikecheese]

Let D like Peterson ffs.

Personally I don't think women should be minimized and/or treated with contempt in an effort to uplift men. I find it regressive and dangerous and it should be criticized.

 

[Walken]

Let D like Peterson ffs.

If he debated the topic with a bit more sincerity I think people would, we've kind of accepted that you hate woman and minorities because you don't shift away from counter points raised simply to antagonize

 

[Walken]

Insidious - proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects.

Yes I believe that suggesting what a person wears makes them partially responsible for assault in the workplace is harmful as it perpetuates an excuse that has been used by predators for decades.

I also think that it is harmful to the mental recovery of victims of such assault.

I believe it also decreases the reporting of incidences as people wonder if it was their fault, or if people will assume it is, which in turn leads to those predators being able to operate for longer.

I also believe that sexual assault is far more about dominance/power/humiliation than it is about sexual attraction so it is at best unhelpful to focus on what the person was wearing - plenty of men and women have been assaulted without any so called provocative behavior/clothing,

The opening line of this post is a knockout blow, and you moved your Teutonic opponent onto that shot masterfully, he will shift away from the content of the post in the usual manner, but you've nailed it here along with a few other good posters

 

[dholliday]

you don't shift away from counter points raised simply to antagonize

come on Croatia!

 

[dholliday]

They also are not improving their respect for women either. Petterson challenges his audience to improve to why not on this issue?

How about this , try to look at this from a woman’s perspective so a simple question - if you were a young woman who wore heels and makeup to work and was being sexually harrassed by her male co-worker does seeing Pettersons’s video make you more or less likely to report him?

How do you think would it make you feel emotionally? You’re already going to feel guilt, confusion amd worry on the consequences - does Petterson exacerbate or reduce those ferlings?

You quite clearly don’t think a woman in that situation has any responsibility for the assaulters actions but I am unclear how you get that assesment from Petterson’s words.

In that extended video he talks about Mao’s wearing of suits to “stop that sort of thing from happening” as if either sexual assualt in Mao’s time (or even current miltilary) didn’t/doesn’t happen. Indeed around 9 mins in he explicitly says women wearing makeup contributes to sexual harrassment in the workplace.

He is quite clearly blaming to some extent the victim and I find that a very harmful message for a figure such as him to send given how much influence he could have to charge perceptions.

Have you got the minute:second count of that Mao comment? I'd be interested to hear it as normally when he evokes Mao it's in a negative context: i.e. look what happens when communism rules.

Regarding the rest, we're on the same page always regarding the safety & freedom of women. I'm not on the same page as Peterson. However, his views aren't poisonous enough to put me off anything else he might have to say. His 'insidiousness' is exaggerated by those who do feel his views are poisonous.

I've said it a few times before: I'm not a fan of JP, not even a follower as such (not subscribed to anything, don't actively keep up-to-date). I enjoy his talks & his interviews because he speaks like I write (sort of...he goes into minute detail and deals in thought experiments). I might not even agree with most of what he's saying, but he's like a good book in first-person where the protagonist may not be totally sympathetic, yet compelling all the same. What I find equally-compelling is the campaign against him from what I've come to know as the reactionary Left, and its followers.

It makes for a brew which is more entertaining than most things on the telly.

 

[Deleted member 28206]

WTF is this

 

[Walken]

WTF is this

Wade in bry

 

[LinekersLegs]

Have you got the minute:second count of that Mao comment? I'd be interested to hear it as normally when he evokes Mao it's in a negative context: i.e. look what happens when communism rules.

Regarding the rest, we're on the same page always regarding the safety & freedom of women. I'm not on the same page as Peterson. However, his views aren't poisonous enough to put me off anything else he might have to say. His 'insidiousness' is exaggerated by those who do feel his views are poisonous.

I've said it a few times before: I'm not a fan of JP, not even a follower as such (not subscribed to anything, don't actively keep up-to-date). I enjoy his talks & his interviews because he speaks like I write (sort of...he goes into minute detail and deals in thought experiments). I might not even agree with most of what he's saying, but he's like a good book in first-person where the protagonist may not be totally sympathetic, yet compelling all the same. What I find equally-compelling is the campaign against him from what I've come to know as the reactionary Left, and its followers.

It makes for a brew which is more entertaining than most things on the telly.

I’ll respond another day D - not feeling arsed after emotion of England game.

 

[dholliday]

I’ll respond another day D - not feeling arsed after emotion of England game.

Of course, Legs I thought you were American, tho? My Germany royally frakked up so I've been enjoying this tournament with some emotional distance.