Current Affairs John McCain - hero or Republican

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From that comment thread I mentioned earlier, this is a fitting macro-cosmic example of what these last few posts have been about, with the thumbs-up ratings neatly telling us what the vast majority of people are thinking. And as with here, we're left wondering if 'Bob' is either hatefully trolling or just being empty-headed:


see.webp
 
From that comment thread I mentioned earlier, this is a fitting macro-cosmic example of what these last few posts have been about, with the thumbs-up ratings neatly telling us what the vast majority of people are thinking. And as with here, we're left wondering if 'Bob' is either hatefully trolling or just being empty-headed:


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It’s probably me that’s not able to follow this now so apologies but Saying that Britain doesn’t want any immigration from cultures that ‘clashes’ with our own is going to be challenged as racist . Do you think that challenging that kind of idea is wrong ?
 
It’s probably me that’s not able to follow this now so apologies but Saying that Britain doesn’t want any immigration from cultures that ‘clashes’ with our own is going to be challenged as racist . Do you think that challenging that kind of idea is wrong ?

It should be challenged as pig ignorant. I live in, well near, a city that has sommet like 80 different languages spoken at schools. And it is brilliant.

Challenging for some? Certainly, but the leakage of different cultures into a vibrant city makes that city just ace.
 
Most Republicans, from John McCain to Condaleeza Rice, are decent people who do their best for their country. I may not agree with them on hardly anything but you can’t dismiss someone as scum because they view things differently to you.
Sadly we're trending that way nowadays on both sides :(

Seems a bit of a simplistic take.

As an example, a person believes it's a fact that McCain has been a fervent supporter of various different wars and once posited it would be fine by him to have soldiers fighting, and inevitably dying in and killing civilians in, one particular war for a 100 years.

Is it really wrong for that person to dismiss McCain as scum? Can you never dismiss somebody as scum, and if you can when is it ok?
 
It should be challenged as pig ignorant. I live in, well near, a city that has sommet like 80 different languages spoken at schools. And it is brilliant.

Challenging for some? Certainly, but the leakage of different cultures into a vibrant city makes that city just ace.

That’s my point really I don’t believe somebody has the right to say “we’ve had enough “ or decide what cultures clash with our own with impunity and frankly the comments by the individual smacked of racism. I’m not saying he’s a racist but I’m not surprised he got called out on it . This clash of cultures thing to me feels like a coded way of saying what somebody wants without saying flat out I don’t want anybody that doesn’t look like me .

I shouldn’t be surprised given who sits in the White House , the bloke that could be our new pm or that Farage is now some kind of media darling . It’s the world and it’s changing and to be honest I’m not particularly keen on it . I’m not a metropolitan elitist and I’m not somebody like described in another thread as needing a wash . I’ve worked hard and in my 40’s I’ve no real financial worries in my life and I don’t have to work again , I’m lucky but I was brought up with what I considered values . My family weren’t as others in this forum politically active and in many cases We’d disagree on politics but the slide to the right is something that deeply concerns me and the normalisation of ideas that a few years ago would have been whispered in pubs just doesn’t sit right with me . I’d hope that society would continue to move forward but a lot of it lately seems like we’re travelling backwards .
 
Seems a bit of a simplistic take.

As an example, a person believes it's a fact that McCain has been a fervent supporter of various different wars and once posited it would be fine by him to have soldiers fighting, and inevitably dying in and killing civilians in, one particular war for a 100 years.

Is it really wrong for that person to dismiss McCain as scum? Can you never dismiss somebody as scum, and if you can when is it ok?
I wasnt referring specfiically about McCain in my post, just the current landscape in general. Seems like both sides of every issue vilifies any one who disagrees with them
 
I wasnt referring specfiically about McCain in my post, just the current landscape in general. Seems like both sides of every issue vilifies any one who disagrees with them

I would agree with this. But I would also say sometimes, not all the time, a simplistic take can be a revelation. While I think 140 or less charcaters makes us collectively dumber and less human, simplicity can have merit.

Parties, individuals, leaders at some point, IMO, would be very well served sit down with each other and find agreement. I mean find what they literally agree on without qualification.
I want what's best for .... teachers, the military, the economy, the population at large etc.... And then from there find everything else they agree on better conditions better pay better retirement less encumbrance whatever it is, But realize that you both have the same and goal and that there are several specific points that are absolutely agreed upon. That's pretty simplistic and that's a large high altitude macro view. But in my opinion that's a great place to start and then you can begin debating are negotiating the specific ways to get that done. But an honest assessment of shared goals and ideas even if they at the macro level is, well logicai.

But unfortunately USABlue is right. Currently it starts with vilification and battles lines before discourse. "We" want this, and you're a fraud, bought and paid for by the (insert lobby here), you voted 72 times last year against the hard-working people because you care more about politics than people. You are just a mouthpiece for Pelosie/Trump plus "your feet stink and you don't love Jesus" (old Southern slander). Now that's out of the way, let's have a respectful discussion where you agree with me.

As long as they have the correct (R) or (D) behind their name (or I guess conservative/labor in UK) we're pretty ok with it. But otherwise we're livid.

We've given tacit agreement for this be considered "government". We shouldn't, that's really not ok.

/rant over
 
It’s probably me that’s not able to follow this now so apologies but Saying that Britain doesn’t want any immigration from cultures that ‘clashes’ with our own is going to be challenged as racist . Do you think that challenging that kind of idea is wrong ?

It should be challenged as pig ignorant. I live in, well near, a city that has sommet like 80 different languages spoken at schools. And it is brilliant.

Challenging for some? Certainly, but the leakage of different cultures into a vibrant city makes that city just ace.

There's the utopian ideal, there's what we as positive-thinking individuals want for society, and partly what some of us experience (I too know & cherish a multi-cultural society). And then there's the reality: Merkel famously said "multi-culti has failed". This was back in 2010, and even then it was clear parallel societies were forming. This isn't the ideal of multi-culturalism which cherishes integration and inter-mixing.

The reality is the vast majority of people are on my page on this. I prefer to deal with the reality, as I believe that speaking for the many more effectively leads to treating all people fair and well. My interest is in the well-being of all people, not just the Germans or Europeans, but all. Effectively inviting the able of the third-world to Europe (as a consequence largely of McCain-supported US-meddling) isn't in the best interests of all.

Ignoring reality - speaking to the minority - leads to conflict, and that ultimately will have victims: not least the poor souls who drown trying to reach Italy or Greece, nor the poverty-stricken unfit refugees who can't get past Lebanon/Turkey, nor the war-fleeing refugees who have made it into Europe but are being grouped-in with economic migrants (meaning their status has been cheapened). Those who can't afford or are unable to flee are left behind in a country where all the most able have gone, leaving a yet more globally-unbalanced future as those poor countries won't get better like this. And then there's the increase in victims of crime in Europe from perps with refugee status. Conflict in debate ultimately leads to victims in reality.

Then there's the big elephant of Islam and its potential future influence in Western societies: demographic projections for the next 100 years are interesting and should have us at least thinking about what that might mean.

Again, I'm far from alone in thinking like this, as the latest piece's comments yet again demonstrate with their many hundreds of likes outweighing the opposing view some of you here are espousing by a factor of at least 10. Think of it as a poll: if you are only in the 10% while 90% are the opposing view, then maybe you'd do well to listen to what the 90% are saying, because it's not what you think they are saying:

sj.webp

So we can either ignore what the majority are thinking and just get mad that the world is turning without us (i.e. Brexit/Trump etc), or we can start listening to what people are saying, show some understanding, don't think the worst of people who don't share your views, meet halfway with them, learn to compromise...all those good things. Then the masses might start voting sensibly again, starting with voting against parties & people (like McCain) who support bombing of Arab lands, which in turn will lessen the need for mass migrant waves to Europe.

Insinuating the majority of people are racist/bigoted/nazi/whatever is a dehumanisation of those people. It's beyond insulting, it's socially-damaging. Such crass accusations should be reserved for the genuine racist horrible people out there, otherwise the very idea of racism becomes cheapened, and that only benefits the actual racists (and actual Far Right politics).

I hope it's clear. At least to the extent that yous understand what the majority opinion is.
 
True. Disappointed in @Ruairi77 then. Disgusting reductive thinking which is as bad as actual racism, for it horribly demonises the wrong people while cheapening what was once a severe accusation, this strengthens the Far Right (who none of us like or want) as a weapon against them (accusation of racism/bigotry) has been weakened.

Found your multy quoting a bit confusing, How have I disappointed you?
Are you accusing me of "disgusting reductive thinking akin to racism"?
and
are you making arguments determining the majority based on 'likes' on posts below the line in the Guardian??
 
Found your multy quoting a bit confusing, How have I disappointed you?
Are you accusing me of "disgusting reductive thinking akin to racism"?
and
are you making arguments determining the majority based on 'likes' on posts below the line in the Guardian??

see above, and see any mainstream public comment thread.
 
That’s my point really I don’t believe somebody has the right to say “we’ve had enough “ or decide what cultures clash with our own with impunity and frankly the comments by the individual smacked of racism. I’m not saying he’s a racist but I’m not surprised he got called out on it .

That's your problem: you're not understanding the argument, so instead of understanding you shove the argument into a bad box labelled "racism". Then you don't have to even try to understand anymore as it's just bad.

Then in the same post you rail against society going backwards, despite me explaining that it's your attitude that is a big cause of it.

I've helped Arab refugee claimants with their claims, taking time out of my day to ensure they get the bureaucracy right so that they don't automatically fail. At the individual level these are people like us who just want a better life to what they had.

At the massive collective level there are significant issues, which I've already gone over. How is that racist?

You're dismissing a majority view (as demonstrated by virtually any European mainstream public comment thread) by playing the race card, then complain about the consequences as if your hands are clean.

It's either stupid, or hateful. Try trusting people instead, it moves things forward.


Finally, these questions require an answer:

- should an economic migrant who is effectively fleeing poverty be given the same status as a refugee? If no, then how do we filter? If yes, then next question:

- should there be an upper limit to how many refugees may gain entrance to EU to file a refugee-status claim? If yes, then what is the limit and how does one stop entrance for the rest? If no, then what policies are in place to manage potentially hundreds-of-millions of new arrivals in the coming decades?

These are tough essential questions and they won't go away by ignoring or badmouthing them. Whatever policies we have should as main priority result in as few victims as possible (i.e. by not encouraging those dangerous ocean crossings of which there's been untold thousands of deaths, for example).

Personally I believe our focus should be on the causes of mass migrations which the West can influence: namely the violent US-led McCain-supported foreign policy which is responsible for so much administrative chaos in Arab lands. Secondly a less timid attitude when openly discussing what will soon be the world's largest religion.

It wasn't long ago that such detailed considered discussion was championed by the thinking class: from Orwell to Hitchens. This last decade or so thinking has often been overruled by virtuous emoting (known as virtue-signalling), led by online-newspapers and social-media culture.

This is now understood by the majority. Thank all yer gods!
 
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That's your problem: you're not understanding the argument, so instead of understanding you shove the argument into a bad box labelled "racism". Then you don't have to even try to understand anymore as it's just bad.

Then in the same post you rail against society going backwards, despite me explaining that it's your attitude that is a big cause of it.

I've helped Arab refugee claimants with their claims, taking time out of my day to ensure they get the bureaucracy right so that they don't automatically fail. At the individual level these are people like us who just want a better life to what they had.

At the massive collective level there are significant issues, which I've already gone over. How is that racist?

You're dismissing a majority view (as demonstrated by virtually any European mainstream public comment thread) by playing the race card, then complain about the consequences as if your hands are clean.

It's either stupid, or hateful. Try trusting people instead, it moves things forward.


Finally, these questions require an answer:

- should an economic migrant who is effectively fleeing poverty be given the same status as a refugee? If no, then how do we filter? If yes, then next question:

- should there be an upper limit to how many refugees may gain entrance to EU to file a refugee-status claim? If yes, then what is the limit and how does one stop entrance for the rest? If no, then what policies are in place to manage potentially hundreds-of-millions of new arrivals in the coming decades?

These are tough essential questions and they won't go away by ignoring or badmouthing them. Whatever policies we have should as main priority result in as few victims as possible (i.e. by not encouraging those dangerous ocean crossings of which there's been untold thousands of deaths, for example).

Personally I believe our focus should be on the causes of mass migrations which the West can influence: namely the violent US-led McCain-supported foreign policy which is responsible for so much administrative chaos in Arab lands. Secondly a less timid attitude when openly discussing what will soon be the world's largest religion.

It wasn't long ago that such detailed considered discussion was championed by the thinking class: from Orwell to Hitchens. This last decade or so thinking has often been overruled by virtuous emoting (known as virtue-signalling), led by online-newspapers and social-media culture.

This is now understood by the majority. Thank all yer gods!

I didn’t call you a racist or not intentionally I also don’t particularly appreciate you throwing round things like ‘playing the race card’ .

Disappointingly I must be wrong because from what you say apparently the majority agree with you , well if that’s true it must be right then if the majority think so . Democracy means that the majority get to elect or vote for who or what it wants , it doesn’t mean that it’s right or everybody has to agree with it . a majority supported the Iraq war , a majority would reintroduce capital punishment and Brexit is going well .

Also kudos for helping the Arabs , that means whatever you say definitely carries more weight .

I’m not arguing it’s not a contentious issue , my point was that because you think it’s wrong the word racism is used when somebody talks about clash of cultures or being full or whatever doesn’t mean everybody else who does is overreacting or playing the race card ,
 
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